The War Thread (was Santa Fe Peace Vigil)

[sukkafu]

a very good point ABA and a very nice reply southern niece-BUT IT'S A MOOT POINT.
WE'RE ALREADY THERE AND ALREADY AT WAR. LET'S FINISH UP QUICKLY AND COME HOME.

WE LOST 16 IN A COPTER CRASH. 1%-)

san francisco is the place where inmates go to run the asylum.

we have millions of people around the world protesting,
yet we have many millions more that are not.

let's give our volunteer military our support-and prayers.

[Ivory Fair]

In what way are you backing the military, Ivory? By saying "You're doing the WRONG thing, I don't want any part of what you're doing, but I lubbs ya anyway"?

No, I don't think the military is doing the wrong thing. They're doing what they're ordered to do I don't fault them for that, as a matter of fact I respect them for that.

However I think their Commander in Chief is doing the wrong thing. HE had the decision to fight or not, they don't. HE is doing the wrong thing.

Does waving at the National Guard motor brigade when I passed them the other day count for anything?

Like it or not, it is OUR war.

Nope, sorry, I don't support it, if I was drafted into it I'd give up my Olympic gold medal and run off to Canada. It's not my war.

I don't understand the dichotomy of reasoning.

Yeah, it kinda makes your head hurt doesn't it? Remember during Vietnam when no one was supporting the soldiers and they didn't come back to a heros welcome? Well, I wish them well, am honored that they'd be willing to lay down their life for me (if it came to that, this thing we got going now isn't even close to anything like that) and I'm praying for them. Do I wish that Bush would change his mind and turn these tanks I've been watching around? Sure do. Like I said before, I wish the soldiers well, but if they weren't over there, I wouldn't have to!

But that's one of the reasons why I don't agree with anti-war protests. Number one, it won't accomplish anything (and that's a fundamental beliefe of mine, never do anything that's a waste of effort) and number two, just like Kiki said, it's not good for the troops to see.

That's why none of you can't come up with some other option other than war to stop this madness.

Pray tell, what is this "madness"? The high gas prices we're paying?

Why are we spending so muchmoney on the miltary if and when a crisis arises we can't use them.

To make sure that no other country "makes a track on the Ohio or takes a drink from the Blue Ridge." Now I have NO promblem with national DEFENSE. I DO agree with JFK's argument that, "We dare not tempt them with weakness. For only when our arms are sufficient beyond doubt can we be certain beyond doubt that they will never be employed." But as for invading another country and pulling someone out of power when the majority of the world isn't in agreement with us, yeah, I have a problem with that.

[Ivory] may have meant that she wasn't behind the reasoning for this war

Thank you. That's my point exactly.

LET'S FINISH UP QUICKLY AND COME HOME.


Now THAT I agree with!

[sukkafu]

ok let's settle this thing once and for all- all those that are for aba,peach, kikiaj, kalisa, and sukkafu-line up here-
all those who are for ivory, irlm, cadeho line up there-

let's have a mud wrestling contest! aba gets ivory in round one! ;D

[Ivory Fair]

i will not play at tug o'war.
i'd rather play at hug o'war,
where everyone hugs
instead of tugs,
where everyone giggles
and rolls on the rug,
where everyone kisses,
and everyone grins,
and everyone cuddles,
and everyone wins.
~ shel silverstein

[Peach]

"Personally, I don't care about what the UN has done and what it hasn't done. I do care about how the US (particularly the government) has shown no regard for rules. Other countries see what the United States has done (gone over the UN's head) and they will do that too, if they feel like it. If we can do it, why can't they?"

As I understand it, there is some debate as to whether being a member of the UN is even constitutional in the first place.... we are a nation of self-rule, by the people for the people....

Also, it's hard for me to take any of this protesting seriously when I feel like what's being overlooked is the mistreatment (that's an understatement) of the Iraqi people. Why is everyone selling that short? Is this okay? To me, Hussein is another Hitler..... and this is okay? We should just leave that alone? What if we had left Hitler alone?

Not only that, if some protesters would give me some intelligent arguments I would listen. But, more often than not, they are posterboard arguments backed with no fact! Some examples..... there is a call-in talk show in San Fran on KQED. Now, we know there is quite a large collection of protesters in this area. The following are some actual excerpts from the anti-war protesters that called in. This stuff, in my opinion, is laughable.

Caller 1: "I dont support the troops, they are killers and should be held
accountable for their actions, just as the president said, following
orders is no excuse."
Host: "Well, reports are that Iraqi troops are already surrendering"
Caller 1: "No I'm talking about American troops, they are the killers".
Host: "So how will you feel about them when they come home"
Caller 1: "If they come home, I will see them as the killers they are."
Host: "Could you elaborate"
Caller 1: "I think I've said enough."


Caller 2: "I feel so sorry for our soldiers, they've been brainwashed by
Bush to believe Saddam has done all these bad things."
Host: "How do you feel about how Saddam has treated his own people, how
he's treated the Kurds?"
Caller 2: "Those are just lies by the undemocratically elected Bush
administration to justify an unjustifiable war."
Host: "Okay, thanks for calling."


Caller 3: "This war is so hypocritical, we armed Iraq, what did we
expect?"
Host: "are you referring to the US's support of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq
war"
Caller 3: "Yeah we are always invading somebody, and now Iran is our
friend."
Host: "I dont know if I'd go that far but international politics is a
ever changing thing, it's not simple by any means."
Caller 3: "Yeah it is bring all the troops home, from Iraq and every
other foriegn base, that's the only way to bring about world peace."


Caller 4: "I agree with the last caller, the US is being hypocritical.
How can we ask Saddam to get rid of his weapons of mass destruction? We
should get rid of ours first."
Host: "Interesting point, do you beleive that other nuclear capable
countries like France, Pakistan, China, India, Britian and Russia should
or will do the same?"
Caller 4: "Those countries stand against this war which shows their
commitment to peace is much greater than ours, if we disarm, so will
they."

Amazing logic here, don't you think? Like I said....led by emotions.

Peach

[sukkafu]

well, there are quite a few dumb calls on talk radio ,as well as some dumb hosts. rush limbaugh has his stupid callers too. so does michael medved.

i listen to john and ken on am640 kfi in l.a. -they're liberals and funny! i like them. i listen to bill handel-he's wacky, dr. laura, rush(never listen to him), medved,
dennis prager, dr. dobson from focus on the family.

emotions are runnig high. we should all pull together.

i like hug o war! it's so much more fun! 4 days more and i'll squeeze elise and conti again!

[Peach]

SUKKAFU! said:

well, there are quite a few dumb calls on talk radio ,as well as some dumb hosts. rush limbaugh has his stupid callers too. so does michael medved.

i listen to john and ken on am640 kfi in l.a. -they're liberals and funny! i like them. i listen to bill handel-he's wacky, dr. laura, rush(never listen to him), medved,
dennis prager, dr. dobson from focus on the family.

emotions are runnig high. we should all pull together.

i like hug o war! it's so much more fun! 4 days more and i'll squeeze elise and conti again!

I try not to listen to talk radio. It makes me too grouchy!

And I don't have anyone to hug!!!! 1%-) WAAAAAA
Wait, I have a munchkin to hug!

Peach

[iratherlikeme]

To me, Hussein is another Hitler..... and this is okay? We should just leave that alone? What if we had left Hitler alone?

The way World War II was going in the beginning (without us), it seems to me that the government intended to leave Germany alone. That is, until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. After declaring war on Japan, I guess they figured they might as well get Hitler too.

[Peach]

iratherlikeme said:

The way World War II was going in the beginning (without us), it seems to me that the government intended to leave Germany alone. That is, until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. After declaring war on Japan, I guess they figured they might as well get Hitler too.

Well, I think for the sake of the Jewish people, they got him a little too late.

Peach

[iratherlikeme]

Yeah; by that time he had already done so much damage and had killed so many. I wonder what makes people crazy like that?

Anyway, I think Elie Wiesel, the author of Night, said that for a long time he hated the United States because he said the US government knew what Hitler was doing yet did nothing. So many people were being persecuted for their religion, being forced out of their homes and into death camps, being killed in those camps, but the United States sat on its hands until Pearl Harbor was bombed.

I have a serious question: When talking about the US, do you use plural pronouns or singular pronouns? I notice that sometimes I say 'they' and 'their' because it's made up of states, but most of the time I say 'it' or 'its' because it's one country.

[Aba21]

What we are doing here is what we hope was done by the powere that be. I have every confidence that it was. We are not a nation that resorts to violence without just cause. We don't know everything going on over there but I will say that if you hve not been watching the events unfold because of your beliefs then you don't see the fact that our military is doing everything it can not to fight. When the Iraqui soldiers surrender they are treated with respect, not held captive, tortured, blindfoded and held for ransom and sometimes killed like they have done to us in the past.

Whatever your reason for joining the military it is still the military and if you join there's a possibility that you may have to fight. Otherwise you are cheating the Govt. by joining. You get those benefits because you joined and if you joined to get the benefits you are doing yourself and the govt. a disservice.

We can go round and round with this and one thing we all agree on is the fact we want it to stop and we want our soldiers to come home.

Irlm thank you for standing up for what you believe. You make some very valid points. I believe you will a tremdous success in your future life whatever you choose. Keep those strong faiths in what's right and what's wrong. They will serve you well.

[Ivory Fair]

As I understand it, there is some debate as to whether being a member of the UN is even constitutional in the first place.... we are a nation of self-rule, by the people for the people....


Well apparently Presidents Roosevlet and Truman didn't get that memo. As a matter of fact, FDR actually came up with the name of the organization. Like it or not, the US was one of the driving entities behind the creation of the UN. We made the rules, now we should stick by them.

Hussein is another Hitler

That analogy doesn't wash. Hussein is not commiting genocide against millions of people, if he was I would drive Kiki to Kuwait myself. He DID attack the Kurds with chemical weapons in the past, but they have been under the protection of ........... oh, what's the name of that organization, oh yeah, the UN, since the end of the last Gulf War.

[Ivory Fair]

Ok, here's a thought.........

It's clear that the US is trying to kill Saddam (if they haven't already.) What would you say if I agreed that I'd support the effort more if their goal was to only capture and imprison him and the rest of the goverment leaders? I mean, that's what we did with Noriega.

What are your thoughts on that Aba (or anyone else who cares to respond.)

[sukkafu]

i believe it's against the geneva convention of 1977 that we agreed not to assassinate any other countries' leaders.
doesn't mean we aren't going to keep that with saddam.

i have this movie called the life and times of hank greenberg. it's the story in documentary form about a new york bronx romanian jewish kid who loves to play baseball. he was tall-6 foot 4 -75 yrs ago- which is like aba's height today.he played for th detroit tigersand he was a terrific ball player and an eventual hall of famer. but he was JEWISH. that subjected him to lots of prejudice and epithets shouted at him during his career.

it showed that in 1938 in NYC and other cities they had rallies for germany and hitler! they also had a catholic cardinal in detroit who was on a radio program and would denounce the jews and was supportive of hitler-from detroit!the movie also showed how hank went during wwII to serve our country and gave up a few yrs of his career.

rallies for hitler in america! maybe that's why we didn't fight them at first!

[Aba21]

Iviry sweetie....I am not for killing Saddam. If they can capture him and Bin Laden and try them for war crimes I will be satified. But I refuse to tell them how to run their war cause I'm not there.