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Post by curet30 on Dec 22, 2004 9:47:05 GMT -5
NATEBOOMER -
When I grow up I wanna be just like you ;D
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 23, 2004 0:17:57 GMT -5
NATEBOOMER - When I grow up I wanna be just like you ;D I'm flattered curet30. Just skip years 1-32. That will give you 18 years to start my life all over again!! ![]() -Nate "Boomer" |
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Post by brunneng on Dec 23, 2004 17:20:43 GMT -5
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Post by keres on Dec 23, 2004 17:22:43 GMT -5
IS HELL FOR REAL If you believe in it, then it is.  |
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Post by brunneng on Dec 23, 2004 17:25:32 GMT -5
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 23, 2004 18:57:37 GMT -5
Guys, how do you type so much without your fingers falling off?  Those are some LONG posts!  ...treat her like a lady... Passion for what you believe in my man, passion!! A little crazy glue is helpful too! ![]() -Nate "Boomer" 'It's time you stopped being all alone, you gotta find you a girl you can call your own. I said uh, not now i'll tell you later, not now i'll tell you when. Not now i'll tell you later, when i'm gonna fall in love." |
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Post by Beej on Dec 24, 2004 4:02:50 GMT -5
Hello, nateboomer...
Thank you for replying. Message board discussions like this can get messy. If something I say happens to get lost in translation and comes across as demeaning or derogatory, please understand it's not my intent. I appreciate that your beliefs are a central part of your identity and I'll do my best to clarify my answers where I feel it's necessary...
"However, i think the posts of curet30 contain irrefutable evidence."
Irrefutable evidence of the existence of God? No...not at all.
The point of Professor Stoner's "research" was to determine -- mathematically -- the likelihood that the prophecies could point to anyone other than Jesus Christ as the Messiah. His source material, of course, was the Bible. Naturally, his conclusion was that Jesus MUST be the Messiah because the odds would be astronomical for anyone else to fulfill so many prophecies by mere chance.
Aside from a creative exercise in statistics and probability, though, Stoner's effort was pointless.
His methodology was flawed from the start. What he essentially did was attempt to quantify how the evidence points to a certain conclusion by using that very same pre-determined conclusion as his basis. The central theme of the Bible is that Jesus Christ IS the Messiah...so, yes, it's reasonable to assume that calculations of probability pertaining to biblical prophecies would, in fact, indicate the same. There's nothing shocking, enlightening or -- more importantly -- scientific about it. One would have to first accept the word of the Bible as absolute truth in order to follow his rationale. To suggest his examination was based on any form of empirical or objective data would not only be irresponsible, but patently false.
It would be like me trying to test the probability that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone in the assassination of John F. Kennedy and using the Warren Commission's report as my sole source of information. Without even picking up a calculator, I could accurately forecast my results: "These calculations prove that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone beyond any reasonable or conceivable shadow of a doubt."
So what! That is the truth, right?
Not exactly. In 1979, the House Select Committee on Assassinations re-examined the matter and took into account witnesses, evidence and expert testimony the Warren Commission had neglected. Among other findings, the committee concluded that while Oswald may very well have fired the fatal shot, there was sufficient evidence to indicate at least one shot appeared to have been fired from in front of the motorcade; since Oswald could not have possibly been in both places at the same time, they deduced that it's probable Oswald did not act alone.
The point is... basing my study on the assumption that the Warren Commission's findings were factual and irrefutable -- as Stoner did with the Bible -- would lead me to conclude the exact same thing as the Warren Commission. There's no objectivity, no independent research, no legitimacy and no sustainability.
No matter how solid or compelling a case appears on its surface, we still have to be able to prove our assertions through scientific method. Proof requires fact -- a universal truth that will always come out the same no matter how many times it's tested. Devoid of fact, we're simply left with beliefs...and beliefs are matters of interpretation and opinion.
Let me sum it up this way...
If Professor Stoner was going to produce a book entitled, Science Speaks, he had an ethical obligation to employ sound, reasoned, structured scientific method in his approach. He did not.
If Professor Stoner's calculations had any scientific merit -- whatsoever -- do you think we'd still be having this debate forty years later? I mean, if his findings were worth the paper they were printed on, would he not be universally recognized as THE man who scientifically proved beyond any doubt that Jesus was the Messiah? That God exists? The truth is science has made no such determination. Not then. Not now.
Re: Marilyn Adamson
Oh boy! It's tough to even know where to begin.
I'll miss Christmas (yes, I do celebrate Christmas with my family) if I sit here dissecting her article one claim at a time! I doubt I'll be able to get back to you until after the holiday, but I PROMISE a response is forthcoming.
In the meantime, nateboomer, thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas...and a healthy and prosperous New Year!
I look forward to continuing this discussion.
;D
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Post by curet30 on Dec 24, 2004 9:52:32 GMT -5
Good day Beej...
Can the 26 fulfilled prophecies (mentioned in an earlier post) be refuted as well? These were only 26 of over 300 distinct prophecies relating to Jesus Christ. Keep in mind again, these were written between 700 to 800 years before they were fulfilled by Christ, written by at least 4 different authors. This is not based on science but on events that took place in history.
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Post by keres on Dec 24, 2004 10:24:26 GMT -5
This is not based on science but on events that took place in history. Yep, this has nothing to do with science, because as far as I know, science hasn`t proved yet, that Jesus Christ was actually a real existing person. But I`m not claiming that it`s all falsification either, though. |
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 24, 2004 19:00:05 GMT -5
Hello, nateboomer... In the meantime, nateboomer, thanks for taking the time to reply. I hope you and your family have a Merry Christmas...and a healthy and prosperous New Year! I look forward to continuing this discussion. ;D It was my pleasure Beej. My job is to plant the seed. Another waters that seed; and only God can give growth. We don't have all the answers about the Almighty, only what He chooses to reveal. He has revealed Christ and unless the Father draws you, then it is virtually impossible to know Him, in a "BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN WORLDVIEW." The great fact about God's everlasting love towards His creation of humankind is giving us a choice to receive Him with no compelling, coersion or forcing whatsoever. On the other hand, He will never violate anyones will or choice to reject Him Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Cr 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 1Cr 2:14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness to him: neither can he know [them], because they are "SPIRITUALLY' discerned. 1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 1Cr 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He takes the wise in their own craftiness. 1Cr 3:20 And again, The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile. 2Cr 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 2Cr 4:4 In whom the god (Satan) of this world has blinded the minds of them which do not believe, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sins, it shall die. Psa 50:12 If I were hungry, I would not tell you: for the world [is] Mine, and all that is in it. Jhn 16:12 I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. Isa 55:8 For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways My ways, says the LORD. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Isa 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts. Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, says the LORD: |
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 24, 2004 19:51:37 GMT -5
Yep, this has nothing to do with science, because as far as I know, science hasn`t proved yet, that Jesus Christ was actually a real existing person. But I`m not claiming that it`s all falsification either, though. Their is a multitude of historical evidence or writings out side of the Bible for Chirst. These are just a few: Authors such as Josephus, wrote in part: "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done." Suetonius:"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D. Life of Claudius, 25:4. PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.) Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worship Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries. "They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." Julian the Apostate: JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.) Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark: "As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, "You have conquered, O Galilean," referring to Jesus Christ. Phlegon-Gentile Historian:"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." Origen and Philopon, De. opif. mund. II21 TACITUS-Gentile Historian Caries Cornelius Tacitus, who wrote around the year 100 A.D., had a strong dislike for the Christians. This, however, makes his testimony even stronger. In discussing the life of Nero and the accusation that he burned the city and blamed it on the Christians, Tacitus says, "Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated because of their leader Christus, the founder who was put to death by Pontius Pilate." If a fair maiden kisses a frog which instantly changes into a handsome prince we would call it a fairy tale. But if the frog takes 40 million years to turn into a prince we call it evolution. Time is the evolutionist's magic wand. -Nate "Boomer" |
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Post by brunneng on Dec 24, 2004 21:24:36 GMT -5
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Post by keres on Dec 25, 2004 10:00:51 GMT -5
Their is a multitude of historical evidence or writings out side of the Bible for Chirst. These are just a few: Authors such as Josephus, wrote in part: "Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done." Suetonius:"Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus [Christ], he [Claudius] expelled them from the city [Rome]." Acts 18:2, which took place in 49 A.D. Life of Claudius, 25:4. PLINY THE YOUNGER: (112 A.D.) Governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, Pliny wrote a letter to the Emperor Trajan regarding how to deal with Christians who worship Christ. These letters concern an episode which marks the first time the Roman government recognized Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism, and sets a precedent for the massive persecution of Christians that takes place in the second and third centuries. "They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." Julian the Apostate: JULIAN THE APOSTATE: (332-363 A.D.) Emperor of Rome mentions the Gospels, miracles and other facts about Jesus. Julian had struggled to end the power of Christians in the Roman Empire. Since the day fifty years earlier that Constantine conquered in the sign of the cross, Christian influence had steadily grown. As Julian lay dying from a mortal wound he made the following remark: "As he bled, the dying emperor groaned, "You have conquered, O Galilean," referring to Jesus Christ. Phlegon-Gentile Historian:"Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus and no other (eclipse); it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any (similar) eclipse in previous times . . . and this is shown by the historical account of Tiberius Caesar." Origen and Philopon, De. opif. mund. II21 TACITUS-Gentile Historian Caries Cornelius Tacitus, who wrote around the year 100 A.D., had a strong dislike for the Christians. This, however, makes his testimony even stronger. In discussing the life of Nero and the accusation that he burned the city and blamed it on the Christians, Tacitus says, "Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished with the most exquisite tortures, the persons commonly called Christians, who were hated because of their leader Christus, the founder who was put to death by Pontius Pilate." If a fair maiden kisses a frog which instantly changes into a handsome prince we would call it a fairy tale. But if the frog takes 40 million years to turn into a prince we call it evolution. Time is the evolutionist's magic wand. -Nate "Boomer" Scientifically it isn`t proved yet, that Jesus Christ ever existed. Period. No matter what is written... If that is all truth, there SHOULD be at least some kind of evidence, but there just isn`t. I can give you plenty of officially documented UFO cases, with pictures, dates, locations... US ex-President Jimmy Carter himself have publically stated that he has seen them! And still, it all remains highly dubious. |
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Post by keres on Dec 25, 2004 10:03:24 GMT -5
Here`s something for you:
13 000 000 BC, PERU:
The Ica stones of Peru show illustrations of advanced surgery (like heart and brain transplant, Caesarean section) and men riding dinosaurs: Dr. Javier Cabrera discovers about 40,000 stone tablets detailing advanced science in the Peruvian desert of Ocucaje. These were called the Ica Stones of Peru. The tablets detail such complex ideas as astronomy, surgery (heart and kidney transplants), C section, acupuncture, genetic disorders, and more. There were descriptions of vehicles which flew through spaces without consuming fuel, descriptions of the lines drawn at Nazca. They described the evacuation of large-headed small-statured race to a planet which would now be in the Pleaides star cluster. These were found in the Peruvian state of Ica. The city of Ica is only 100 miles from the city of Nazca.
13,000 BC, INDIA:
Indian country of Rama existed. Remains of their large cities still exist in the deserts of India and Pakistan (Mohenjodaro). Indian texts from this period tell of anti-gravity space ships (called Vimanas, or Astras), and a war with the Atlanteans on the moon. Curiously, Soviet scientists have discovered what they call "age-old instruments used in navigating cosmic vehicles" in caves in Turkestan and the Gobi Desert. The "devices" are hemispherical objects of glass or porcelain, ending in a cone with a drop of mercury inside. Some ancient Indian texts describe a war with Atlantis (who flew Vailixi machines) using flying machines and atomic bombs about 10,000 to 12,000 years ago.
BC, MIDDLE EAST, BIBLE:
Of course, everyone knows the famous "UFO quotes" from Ezekial in the Bible (verses 4 through 19, etc.) which I quote here only to be as thorough as possible:
"4. And I looked and beheld a whirlwind came out of the north a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it and out of the midst thereof as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire. Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance, they had the likeness of man… and the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of the flash of lightning…and when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them, and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up."
329 BC, GREECE, ALEXANDER THE GREAT, VIA HIS HISTORIANS:
"...told of 2 strange objects in the sky that dived repeatedly at his army as they were attempting a river crossing. (Jaxartes River). The action so panicked his elephants, horses, and men they had to abandon the river crossing until the following day. They were described as great silver shields, spitting fire around the rims."
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Post by keres on Dec 25, 2004 10:04:24 GMT -5
If you want me to continue with that, just let me know. |
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