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Post by DrTemptation "Doc T" on Dec 15, 2004 0:07:48 GMT -5
The journey into "is hell for real, and if so why is it rarely taught today?" began about a year ago. At that time the Lord started to walk me through different revelations of eternal punishment.
I read, besides the Bible, different articles for and against the reality of hell. The articles that did not believe in eternal punishment generally made the statement: "How could a good and loving God send anyone to hell?"
So I was tossed to and fro for a few weeks on the reality and significance of hell. More importantly, should eternal punishment be preached and taught, or just the mercy, grace and love of God be given? Also, I was puzzled as to why we hear so little teaching about this place of eternal judgment, especially from the pulpit.
WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
One night, a divine thought came to me: "What would Jesus do?" or more closely, "What would Jesus teach?" Especially since this is New Testament teaching and in the dispensation of grace.
So, I reasoned that if the topic of hell and eternal punishment were important to Jesus, when I opened the books of the gospels, Jesus should refer to this topic frequently. Conversely, if it wasn't important to Him, then I would only find a few references. This was my test and sort of fleece.
So I opened the book of Matthew and began my test. The results proved to be very enlightening and almost shocking. Not only did Jesus mention hell and eternal punishment often -- about fifteen times -- but even John the Baptist refers to it twice within a short paragraph.
Here are some of the scriptures in the book of Matthew:
Matt. 3:10 "...and thrown into the fire."
Matt. 3:12 "...with unquenchable fire."
Matt. 5:30 "...than for your whole body to go into hell."
Matt. 7:19 "...thrown into the fire."
Matt. 8:12 "...will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 10:28 "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matt. 13:40 "...burned in the fire..."
Matt. 13:24 "...into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 13:50 "...and throw them into the fiery furnace where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 18:8 "...be thrown into eternal fire."
Matt. 18:9 "...and be thrown into the fire of hell."
Matt. 22:13 "...and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The next scripture quote happens after the seven woes declared by Jesus in Matthew 23.
I reasoned that if hell was real and important to Jesus, he would likely mention it here, and he does in Matthew 23:33, where He states...
Matt. 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
Matt. 24:51 "...and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 25:30 "...into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 25:41 "...depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Matt. 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment..."
To emphasize this point even further, Jesus, in the great commission in Matthew 28:19, states:
"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
"Everything" includes many of His commands which talk about eternal judgment and which were to direct us away from hell.
The subject of hell and eternal punishment, as you can see, was very important to Jesus and He needed to teach on it frequently. In fact, if you do a study on the complete teachings of Jesus, He talked more about hell than He did on heaven. The "bad news" of hell is part of the revelation of the "good news" of the gospel.
THE CHURCH NEEDS TO BE REAL TO BE RELEVANT
I sense the Lord saying that a new reality needs to come into the church and the teaching on hell is part of this reality. They will know the truth and the truth will set them free. People need to hear the truth spoken in love.
I'm not a church statistician, but I believe that there is a close correlation between the loss of teaching on hell and eternal punishment, both in and out of the church, and the rise of immorality in North America over the last few decades. People in the world believe that they can keep on sinning and that there is no final judgment or eternal punishment.
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Post by TemptsFanforLife on Dec 15, 2004 3:19:00 GMT -5
God has given us all free will to chose the direction our life on earth and in the afterlife will go. It has long been an established fact that for every action there is an equal or stronger reaction. To assume that one can go through life doing any and everything you want without realizing that there are consequenses for those actions is foolish. The beautiful thing is that God loved us so much that he gave his only son so that he would take on the burdens of our sins. Jesus came to earth just to endure the torture and pain of the scourging and beatings by the romans for us. For us he endured the pain of having a crown of torns placed upon his brow. For us he suffered the pain and humiliation of having to carry the cross through the streets and up the hill to Calvary. For our sins he was nailed to the cross and hung on high where he bled and died insuring us a place in heaven and all we have to do is repent, ask Gods forgiveness and acknowledge the Lord God as our personal savior. It's not hard to do at all, he made it so simple for us to reach our heavenly reward. Christ assured the thief hanging on the cross beside him that there would be a place in heaven for him just because the man asked Jesus to remember him when Christ entered into his Kingdom. That opportunity is open to us as well. Free will means having the choice of everlasting life or eternal damnation. As proven by the thief on the cross it is never to late to repent and ask for Gods mercy and grace. If we end up in Hell it is our on fault. It is our on choice.
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Post by brunneng on Dec 15, 2004 9:09:43 GMT -5
Right. I choose the path of good! Temptations forever!  ...my girl... |
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 15, 2004 21:42:02 GMT -5
Right. I choose the path of good! Temptations forever! ...my girl... Choosing the good path is commendable, but it won't get you into heaven. There is no good deed or action that we can ever do, no matter how many times or how long we practice them, that will usher us into Heaven and the presence of a Holy God. That's why The Lord came in the flesh to satisfy the wages of sin by paying the penalty Himself, which is death. Only The Christ who was not only sinless but could do no sin by nature, though He was tempted (not to give in to temptation, but tempted from outside of Himself) could accomplish this. This may seem incredible, believable or foolishness to many, but God says human wisdom is foolishness to Him. He has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise. Number 1 being the cross. How can a wooden cross satisfy sin? It's not so much the cross, but who died on it, Jesus, The Lamb Of God, The Lion Of Judah, The King Of Kings!! Unless God removes the veil from the minds of those who disbelieve, they "CANNOT" understand. Satan wants to take everyone he can into a dark eternity in his grasp. His greatest weapon is deception. If he can convince people he doesn't exist or is an imp with a red suit and a pitchfork or a metaphor, he has done his job. He has succeeded in convincing you that he is a cartoon character. He will do and suggest to your mind whatever it takes to keep you from knowing Christ. I.E. "All roads lead to God". "You don't need God" "Do your own thing". "I don't need Christ to find God". If you think like this, he's got you my friend, he's got you. He is not this ugly grotesque being pictured in movies. The Bible says that he is beautiful. Adorned with every type of jewel. He reflected God's Glory, His "Pipes" refer to the music that God built into him. Just think, a living orchestra! Don't believe it? Listen to some of the hard driving music today and yesterday. He is a supernatural being with supernatural wisdom which is poisoned and tainted with corruption. It must be true, he tried to dethrone God!! Now that's incredible! The Devil (who was created as Lucifer who by his corruption and pride became Satan) looks more like this  than like this  He transforms himself into an angel of light. He is not equal to God in anyway. He is powerful but God is All powerful. He is wise and has a great deal of knowledege, but God is All knowing. Satan is a liar and the "FATHER" of lies. There is no truth in him. When he lies, he is doing what comes natural to him. He was a murderer from the beginning and seeks only to Kill, Steal and Destroy. He will not be a ruler in hell, but will be suffering torment forever just as others who will be there. As long as you have breath, you have time to turn from sin (Sin means missing the mark, not so much a sin as doing something wrong but missing God) God is Patient and longsuffering not willing that anyone should perish. Hell is real my friends. Jesus talked more about hell than Heaven! Hell expands itself for those who reject him. No, God will not send anyone to hell. Their "REJECTION" of the one who died in their place sends them there. If a person lives to be 150 years old, and never wanting anything to do with God or His son Christ, then when he or she dies, God is not going to all of a sudden, violate your will by saying, "okay, now come into a place that you never wanted to be, never really believed in and spend all eternity with me whom you never wanted a part of in your earthly life. He didn't force your will or force you to choose to love him while you lived, and he certainly, most definetely won't do it at the final judgement. The choice is yours. YOU STILL HAVE TIME!! Or, DO YOU?? "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live": Deut 30:19 [If you want to investigate and see if the Bible is God's word or who Jesus "IS", first search the scriptures. Second, find a well balanced, scripturally correct church. Third, i highly recommend a book titled "The Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel, who as a hard nosed journalist, criss-crossed the country gathering facts on the Bible and Jesus. the results were undeniable and incredible] I was blessed the day You found me. Gonna build my whole world around You. You're everything Good God, and You're all that matters to me. "You're My Everything" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Post by TemptsFanforLife on Dec 16, 2004 1:02:01 GMT -5
Amen Nateboomer Amen ! :yourrock
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Post by brunneng on Dec 16, 2004 10:07:58 GMT -5
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Post by curet30 on Dec 16, 2004 11:13:13 GMT -5
Hi NATEBOOMER...
Perhaps you can encourage a young brother in the business who also happens to be a Deacon in a Pentecostal church.
My first love is GOD yet sometimes I feel like I'm "cheating" on Him when I sing doowop for $$. I know a man has to earn a (righteous) living, even Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 "...we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.".
If I can bring anyone to Christ while I'm performing (before, during or after a show) then perhaps I can feel better about my weekend jobs.
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Post by Dbaby on Dec 16, 2004 18:25:03 GMT -5
I heard somewhere that hell wasn't even in the bible until a later translation.  |
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Post by curet30 on Dec 16, 2004 19:04:43 GMT -5
I heard somewhere that hell wasn't even in the bible until a later translation. According to my HOLMAN BIBLE DICTIONARY (which I carry daily) the definition of Hell is (in excepts starting at p.631) The abode of the dead especially as a place of eternal punishment for unbelievers. Hell is an Anglo-Saxon word used to translate ONE Hebrew word and THREE Greek words in the King James version of the Old & New Testaments. The Hebrew word that "hell" was translated is SHEOL. It occurs 65 times in the Hebrew Bible. SHEOL is a Hebrew word that has taken on the properties of a proper name. The OT used the word to refer as a place of depth. The three Greek words are HADES, GEHENNA & TARTAROO. HADES - translated from Hebrew SHEOL. Hades is not simply a place of the dead but represenst power of the underworld. GEHENNA is the Greek form of two Hebrew words GE HINNOM (valley of Hinnom). It has become synonymous with a "place of buring". TARTAROO is the Greek word for "cast into hell". These are just exceprts - I hope is clears up the definition. |
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Post by brunneng on Dec 16, 2004 19:38:45 GMT -5
I heard somewhere that hell wasn't even in the bible until a later translation. Feeling better baby?? ...all I need... |
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 16, 2004 19:53:03 GMT -5
Not going to heaven. Already dead and staying right here!  ...power... Believe me you'll only be here as long as you live. Once this life is over, in an twinkling of an eye, you will be either in the presence of God awaiting your reward(s) such as room or mansion made by Jesus Himself just for you ( in My Fathers House are many mansions, if it were not so, I would have told you, I go to prepare a place for you) or taken to a place in hell to await final judgement. I've heard people say, that hell is right here on earth. Not so. If you take every war ever fought, every inhumanity done to man no matter how heinous or whatever length of time, put them all together, it would not even begin to equal the torment in store for those who reject Christ . As i said Brunnen, God has to remove the veil from your mind in order for you to see. No one can (the operative word is "Can") come to Christ, unless the Father "Draws him". If you dilligently seek God with all of your heart, you will find Him. Please do so and you will experience the peace that passses all understanding. He knows your end from your beginning. His sole purpose for giing us each day is to give us time to come to Him. "The fool has said in his heart there is no God" Ps. 14:1 and 53:1 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Gal 6:7 [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hbr. 10:31 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that [would come] from thence. Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Return to Top |
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Post by brunneng on Dec 16, 2004 20:00:26 GMT -5
When you live the good life, you don't fear death. I am just this-close to being a saint. No evil in my past, no skeletons in the closet! My halo shines bright! Truly! ;D ...you know you could have been a candle... |
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 16, 2004 20:09:13 GMT -5
According to my HOLMAN BIBLE DICTIONARY (which I carry daily) the definition of Hell is (in excepts starting at p.631) The abode of the dead especially as a place of eternal punishment for unbelievers. Hell is an Anglo-Saxon word used to translate ONE Hebrew word and THREE Greek words in the King James version of the Old & New Testaments. The Hebrew word that "hell" was translated is SHEOL. It occurs 65 times in the Hebrew Bible. SHEOL is a Hebrew word that has taken on the properties of a proper name. The OT used the word to refer as a place of depth. The three Greek words are HADES, GEHENNA & TARTAROO. HADES - translated from Hebrew SHEOL. Hades is not simply a place of the dead but represenst power of the underworld. GEHENNA is the Greek form of two Hebrew words GE HINNOM (valley of Hinnom). It has become synonymous with a "place of buring". TARTAROO is the Greek word for "cast into hell". These are just exceprts - I hope is clears up the definition. dbaby, You don't want to go there. Knowing the original Greek translation is a plus. That way, you don't have to get confused looking through many translations. Where is hell? The Bible teaches that lost sinners will exist forever, after the final judgment, in a place which is described under different names and symbols. The notion in modern times that hell won't be a place but a state of mind or a condition, even on earth now , does not do justice to the teachings of the Bible. The place where the lost will exist forever, body and soul, is described by using examples of places that people of the Bible knew. For example the word used for hell "gehenna" is a Hebrew word consist ing of ge (=land) and Hinnom (= a valley southwest of Jerusalem). It was the place where wicked idol-worshippers burnt their own children alive as sacrifices to the idol-god Moloch. It was considered a filthy and horrible place, a symbol of hell. In Matt hew 18:9 we hear of "the fires of hell," in verse 8: "eternal fire". In Revelation 20:14-15 it is called "a lake of fire". Hell is not a condition, it is a place. Where it shall be, nobody knows. All that we know is that - (a) God is not there except for His wrath. (b) It is a place of eternal torment and pain, and remorse, where your conscience will be like a devouring worm, always reminding you of what could have been if only you did not despise the calls of God; a place of utter despair, weeping and grinding of teeth (Matthew 8:12; 13:50; Mark 9:43-48; Luke 16:23-28; Revelation 14:10; 21:8). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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Post by nateboomer on Dec 16, 2004 23:02:00 GMT -5
Hi NATEBOOMER... Perhaps you can encourage a young brother in the business who also happens to be a Deacon in a Pentecostal church. My first love is GOD yet sometimes I feel like I'm "cheating" on Him when I sing doowop for $$. I know a man has to earn a (righteous) living, even Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 3:10 "...we commanded you this: If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.". If I can bring anyone to Christ while I'm performing (before, during or after a show) then perhaps I can feel better about my weekend jobs.
Hey my man. You don't have to be in a pulpit to glorify God. He has given each person talents and gifts. He has also created within each life a void. That void can only be filled by God. That's why we try so hard through alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling material things and what ever else this world has to offer to fill this void. Yet, it never seems to to satisfy, and they never will completely.
These things only bring temporary happiness and pleasure. That's why the drug user and alcoholic yearns for a higher high each time they indulge. Things had gotten so bad in my life that i thought that i was going be an alcoholic. It was scary. I had allready lost my Father and Mother and my Sister was killed in a car jacking a year after my Mom's death. However, God said he would never leave me or forsake me. He never did. He walked with me through everything.
I did a show doing comedy a couple of years ago at a place in New Jersey. I was sitting at the bar waiting to go on. I had no desire to drink, didn't even think about it. There was this guy sitting next to me that was slightly "smashed". He kept saying to me "God sent you", "God sent you". I really wasn't paying that much attention to him as i was concentrating on my upcoming set. After he said this about the fourth time, i started to listen, asking him why he kept saying that. He told me that he used to go to church and was very active, but personal problems had gotten the better of him. He started moving more and more away from God. I told him that it wasn't to late to go back to the one who truly loves him; that God was always thinking about him and had a plan for his life. I said, maybe the Lord did send me here to talk to you.
Anyway after i did my set, I suggested that he give God a place into his heart again and he'll put him back on course without finding fault if he truly turns around. He said that he would. I haven't heard from him to this day. That incident led me to realize that the talent i was given was to Glorify God, to be a messenger; which is what my name, Nathaniel, means, Messenger of God. You never know who may be sitting in the audience (or a fellow performer) that was divinely destined for you to be a witness.
So curet30 don't feel that you are doing the "Devil"s music if it is clean and talks about life, love, relationships, things on your heart. All you need do is look at the Songs Of Solomon and you will see an incredible theme of found love, lost love and being in love. No love song i have ever heard can compare with Songs that Solomon wrote.
Every song that i have done speaks of true and compassionate love. Though God is love, Love is not neccessarily God. People have all kinds of definitions of love and they don't all lead to the Almighty.
Here are some articles on your inquiry.
If you want to read the entire article, go to: Netscape search and enter: "God's Gift of Singing and music". Click on "God's Music God's Way"
Anointed dance-hall music
A study of the biblical adaptation of "secular" lyrics will give us greater confidence in the use of non-Christian melodies. Before proceeding to this, however, let me illustrate the power of this practice.
Old-time Methodist preacher, Hodgson Casson couldn't sleep. Unable to tolerate the din any longer, he burst into the dance saloon, seized a fiddle from a stunned player and proceeded to put new words to the dance music that had been keeping him awake. Soon, people were kneeling before the Saviour Casson sang about.
Music which, just moments before, was moving dancing feet was now bending penitent knees. Such is the power of a musician sold out to God.
That night a new hymn was added to the Christian Church. More significantly, new names were added to the Lamb's Book of Life. The tune wasn't new, but the reverence in that tavern certainly was. A man had converted dance-hall music. God had converted dancers. Casson changed their song. God changed their hearts.
Danger
A word of caution, however. Though we have established that musical ability is from God, it does not logically follow that, lyrics aside, every musical style must be of God. And although some worldly music can be reclaimed for the cause of Christ, this does not automatically imply that all secular music is capable of such use.
Let me use two other gifts of God to demonstrate the distinction between what is able to be used in God's service and what is not. The world can misuse God's gift of sex, turning it into sin and yet that exact behaviour could be placed in a godly, marital context and glorify our Maker. However, this gift can be not merely misused but so perverted (eg bestiality) that there is no acceptable context in which that perversion could be used for the glory of God. As another example, consider God's gift of speech, something that is so much of God that His Son is call the Word. We will confirm in the next few paragraphs that words, even sentences, used by pagans can be put into a Christian context that pleases God. Some words, however, (eg vulgar swear words) are so perverse that there is probably no context in which they can be used for the glory of God.
I don't know if any music falls into this category, I just warn of the theoretical possibility. I also alert you to the greater likelihood of there being music which, while not intrinsically anti-God, has such evil or sensual connotations in the minds of some people as to present a spiritual danger to them. Then there are those who conclude that if Christians can play a certain type of music then they can fill their minds with the worldly equivalent. More than two entire New Testament chapters are devoted to the care we should exercise in ensuring we do not risk a bother's or sister's spiritual welfare by doing something which causes us no qualms of conscience. (Romans 14:1- 15:3; 1 Corinthians 8) There are people who would not dare touch alcohol for fear of offending a 'weaker brother' and yet spare no thought for the casualties their music might produce. Musicians worthy of the name of Christ are ministers of the Gospel, servants of the body of Christ, not egotists intent of having a good time or establishing their own rights.
The following was taken from Netscape search under "Scriptures using your God given talents", click on: "Questions on using skills for God" (This article is closer to your interest)
These are all gifts that God gave us.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Whatever talent that you have and use came from God above. God will give you the gift, the skill, to do a perfect work. Some of the best poems, that I have read, came from what many would call just a common housewife. No training, just the gift of God.
if you continue to practice any skill, you will get better as time goes on. God will not take it away from you, however, there is a saying by man that says "Use it, or Lose it." If you do not exercise the skills that God gave you, you may lose interest in that skill, and never do it again. God will not take it away, but we can throw that skill away ourselves. |
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Post by Dbaby on Dec 17, 2004 19:49:59 GMT -5
I dunno. I'm just one of those people who doesn't give the Bible any credibility because God didn't write it. I mean, Moses was a drunk. I understand it was divinly inspired, but if someone actually was divinly inspired today, do you honestly thing anyone would believe him/her and treat their writings as gosple? I don't mean to get into an argument or anything about it. I'm one of those people who knows I'm going straight to hell. In Dante's Inferno, I'd be in the 8th circle, 10th bolgia, right next to the dead center of hell with all the falsifiers because I lie about where I am all the time. I believe in God because I pray when I'm scared, but the rest of the time I don't feel like I do. This actually really bothers me, otherwise I wouldn't bring it up. It just feels like my faith has slipped from me and no matter what I do, I can't seem to make myself want to bring it back. I hate going to church, I hate everything that deals with organized religion because I see all these loop holes and hypricritical statements and beliefs everytime I look at it, and... I hate feeling this way. I really wish I could have some faith; I do! It just feels like God doesn't want me to or something.
Little help here?
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