IS HELL FOR REAL

[brunneng]

Hell would be a place without women (like Ivory)!

:hug



...I can build a castle from a single grain of sand...

[nateboomer]

Beej said:

Part VI...


"6. I guess I'm the token atheist.

Hey Beej, God Loves you and so do i.

FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jhn 3:17 For God didn't send his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jhn 3:18 He that believes on him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The strongest proof that i have for God in Christ is, what he he has done in my life. I don't write these things to prove that i am right or have faith. I just want to share what was done in my life. I have no animosity towards anyone for their beliefs. I have a Godly love for everyone, no strings attached. It is the way i was created. That's why i like Tempstinfo; because we all share the love of the greatest singing group of all time.

"Love for our Temptations Has Joined Us All Together"
-Nate "Boomer"

[Beej]

Miss Ivory...

"I can expound upon these things if anyone likes..."

It's not necessary, but if you have the time and desire to elaborate...I'll certainly listen. It's up to you, Boss Lady.



Nate...

You're cool by me.

[keres]

First Proof of Jesus Found?



The first archaeological evidence of Jesus' existence has come to light, literally written in stone, according to one of the top world experts in deciphering ancient Near East inscriptions.




"Amazing as it may sound, a limestone bone box, called an ossuary, has surfaced in Israel that may once have contained the bones of James, the brother of Jesus," André Lemaire, professor of Hebrew and Aramaic philology and epigraphy at the Sorbonne University in Paris, wrote in the upcoming issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

"We know this because an extraordinary inscription incised on one side of the ossuary reads in clear Aramaic letters: 'James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus,'" he wrote.

Kept in a private collection in Israel, the 20-inch long box is unfortunately empty. Nothing is known of its history prior to the current ownership, but experts believe it was probably one of hundreds uncovered in the Holy City.
In the first century, ossuaries were used in the second of a two- stage burial process, when bones of the deceased were transferred from burial caves.

Largely abandoned in 70 A.D., when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and burned the Temple, the practice offers a rare period of self documentation, with hundreds of names carved in stone.

The 20 Aramaic letters etched on a side of the newly revealed ossuary read "Ya'akov bar Yosef akhui di Yoshua," or "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus."

But is this the same James who, according to biblical accounts, was the brother of Jesus of Nazareth and a leader of the early Christian church in Jerusalem? Or is he just another James whose father's name happened to be Joseph and whose brother was called Jesus?

Jesus, Joseph and James were common names in biblical times, but according to experts, the statistical probability of their appearing in that combination is extremely slim.

In addition, said Lemaire, the mention of a brother is unusual, and indicates that this Jesus must have been a well-known figure.

According to the scholar, the cursive shape of three engraved letters would date the ossuary to the last decades of 70 A.D. Further laboratory tests by the Geological Survey of Israel concluded that the ossuary has no modern elements, was worked with no modern tools, and appears to be genuine.

"If its authenticity is proven beyond doubt, this will be an outstanding discovery in modern scholarship," Paul Shalom, Professor of Jewish History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, told Discovery News.

Until now, the most significant finds related to New Testament figures have been the ossuary of Caiaphas, the high priest who handed Jesus over the Romans for crucifixion, and a dedication tablet on a monument. It mentions Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea who passed the death sentence against Jesus.

The new find would be the first archaeological discovery to corroborate Biblical references to Jesus.

"This ossuary could be compared to the Turin Shroud: a big key artifact for believers. I would be thrilled if it were true, but I believe it is a forgery. Several things cast suspicion: the line of custody is insecure, and the inscription is too perfect. They would have never written 'brother of Jesus' in the first century," Robert Eisenman, professor of biblical archaeology at California State University, Long Beach, and author of "James, Brother of Jesus," told Discovery News.

Like the Shroud, the ossuary is set to become one of the most controversial relics in Christendom. World famous biblical scholar Rev. Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, professor of the New Testament at the Ecole Biblique in Jerusalem, found "no reason to object" to Lemaire's conclusions and called for it to be restored to the Christian church.

"Since it seems very likely that the inscription is authentic, then I find it intolerable that the ossuary should remain in a secret private collection in Israel," he told Discovery News.


dsc.discovery.com/news/briefs/20021021/jesus.html#

[tabby]

Considering the tsunami, I know hell is for "very" real. I don't think these people speak of hell in theoretical terms.

[Ivory Fair]

It's not necessary, but if you have the time and desire to elaborate...I'll certainly listen.

Ok.

1. "scientific" facts that are mentioned long before they were "proven" to be true

The Earth is described as being round numerous times in the Bible and centuries before it was proven to be so. (Job 26:7 and 10, Isaiah 40:21-22, Proverbs 8:27

More......
www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

2. books written by authors, independant of each other and living centuries apart, correlate with one another

Isaiah is just one of the prophets that the Gospels correlate with. 'nuff said.

3. outside, non-Biblical "historical" correlation of Christ's existance (I'm confused as to what "scientific proof" Keres is looking for?)


The historian Josephus wrote about Christ in "Antiquites" Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.


Again, I"m still at a loss as to what you're referring to when you say "scientific" proof Keres.

[MissTara]

I see the direction of this thread is going the same as "The Bible" thread, :headbang Lawd Ham Urcy!
Can we get an AMEN and leave it at that! :hug

[nateboomer]

MissTara said:

I see the direction of this thread is going the same as "The Bible" thread, Lawd Ham Urcy!
Can we get an AMEN and leave it at that!

Hi MissTara. Whenever someone has questions or doubts, everyone who has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior should always be ready to give an anwser for the hope that is within them. We should be ready to defend (not coerce, force or cram) the faith by stating Who, Why and What we believe.

-Nate "Boomer"

[Dbaby]

nateboomer said:

Hi MissTara. Whenever someone has questions or doubts, everyone who has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior should always be ready to give an anwser for the hope that is within them. We should be ready to defend (not coerce, force or cram) the faith by stating Who, Why and What we believe.

-Nate "Boomer"

That's true, but at the same time, you don't want to sound like a bible thumper. I mean, I decided I believe in God, but when I didn't, if someone came up to me with a bible or ANYTHING trying to get me to believe, I'd just turn off my mental switch. I think God's word shines through much brighter when people see you LIVING God's word, not when you present it to them.

[keres]

Ivory said:

Ok.

1. "scientific" facts that are mentioned long before they were "proven" to be true

The Earth is described as being round numerous times in the Bible and centuries before it was proven to be so. (Job 26:7 and 10, Isaiah 40:21-22, Proverbs 8:27

More......
www.clarifyingchristianity.com/science.shtml

2. books written by authors, independant of each other and living centuries apart, correlate with one another

Isaiah is just one of the prophets that the Gospels correlate with. 'nuff said.

3. outside, non-Biblical "historical" correlation of Christ's existance (I'm confused as to what "scientific proof" Keres is looking for?)


The historian Josephus wrote about Christ in "Antiquites" Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3.

Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome.


Again, I"m still at a loss as to what you're referring to when you say "scientific" proof Keres.

Scientific proof, like for example in the above posted article of mine...archaeological evidence. But I do believe what you`re saying too, Ivory.


By the way, thanks for the link!

[keres]

MissTara said:

I see the direction of this thread is going the same as "The Bible" thread, Lawd Ham Urcy!
Can we get an AMEN and leave it at that!

You didn`t like my Bible thread?? ;D

[Beej]

The very first paragraph from the ClarifyingChristianity website claims:

"The Bible is not a science book... We are not aware of any scientific evidence that contradicts the Bible."

No kidding. If they're not aware of any discrepancies or scientific evidence contradicting the Bible, they haven't been paying attention. Of course, I imagine their reaction would be something along these lines, anyway:



The individual(s) responsible for that site certainly aren't shy about taking GIANT leaps (and employing great imaginations) to merge science with the Bible. At some point, however, this contortion of language to selectively conform Biblical interpretations to scientific discovery becomes untenable. If an individual chooses to accept the word of the Bible -- from cover to cover -- as absolute truth, that's his right. He'd have to completely ignore certain elements of scientific discovery which decisively refute major events in the Biblical record, of course, but he's entitled to his beliefs, nonetheless. Trying to have it both ways or mischaracterizing one to manufacture support for the other won't work.



"The Earth is described as being round numerous times in the Bible and centuries before it was proven to be so. (Job 26:7 and 10, Isaiah 40:21-22, Proverbs 8:27)"

Job 26:7........He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, [and] hangeth the earth upon nothing.

Job 26:10.......He hath compassed the waters with bounds, until the day and night come to an end.

Isaiah 40:21....Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?

Isaiah 40:22....[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof [are] as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Proverbs 8:27...When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:



I'm curious as to which of these you believe mentions Earth as a spherical object, Ivory? I ask because -- even by the most liberal interpretations -- not one of these appears to speak to that notion.

Assuming that you're citing the King James version, we have to consider these translations in their proper context. In these passages, the Hebrew word chuwg is translated to mean both "compass" and "circle." Now, in Hebrew, "circle" takes on a special significance because it refers to the idea of "order" in ancient text...namely a continuous cycle of life. That's important to note before wading through these translations and assigning unintended meanings to these words.

Job 26:10 states, "He hath compassed the waters with bounds...." Now, one might see the word "compassed" and think of the v-shaped instrument we used in gradeschool to make circles around a fixed point, but that's clearly not what is meant in this passage. Here,"compassed" refers to parameters..."enclosed or surrounded; limited."

Likewise, Proverbs 8:27 appears to use the word "compass" in a similar manner, "...when he set a compass upon the face of the depth...," though, there could be alternate meanings.

Job 26:7 and Isaiah 40:21 don't appear to say anything regarding this planet's shape whatsoever.

Isaiah 40:22 says, "[It is] he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth...." Well, it does say "circle," which is almost like a flattened sphere. But, again, what is actually being said here? In the context of this passage, "circle" could mean several things. In English, circle could be defined as "a territorial division or circumference of land" and still make perfect sense. Considering the Hebrew significance of the word, however, the passage could've been intended to read: "It is God that reigns over the order of the earth...." We just don't know.

What I do know is that "circle" is NOT referring to a geometric shape or globe-like structure; if that were the intention, the author probably would've been bright enough to differentiate and use the Hebrew word for "ball" or "sphere"...duwr...as he does earlier in Isaiah 22:18:

"He will surely violently turn and toss thee [like] a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory [shall be] the shame of thy lord's house."

It's interesting to note that duwr can be used to mean "sphere," "round," "ball" or "circle," while chuwg can mean "circle," but NOT "sphere" or "ball." The use of the word chuwg in the original Hebrew text of the passages above indicates that there was no intent to comment on the shape of this planet as a sphere.

You'll see various translations that differ from the King James version...and not one of them mentions the shape of our Earth as a spherical body.

The truth is, if the Bible suggests any shape, it routinely and consistently implies that Earth is FLAT. A quick Google search on the topic will turn up numerous citations. I'd be interested to hear your interpretations of those passages as well...employing the same level of skepticism, of course.



"Isaiah is just one of the prophets that the Gospels correlate with. 'nuff said."

'Nuff said? You're not trying to support the Bible with the Bible, are you?



"The historian Josephus wrote about Christ in "Antiquites" Book 18, ch. 3, par. 3."

I don't actually have a position on whether Jesus Christ ever lived. I'd only assert that viewing historians as arbiters of truth is a dangerous proposition. One need only view the historical account of the past 50 years as offered by schools in communist countries to understand what I mean. Christ's name having been mentioned by historians through the ages does not, in and of itself, constitute proof of his existence. Historians record tales and wide-held beliefs within particular eras or groups of people all the time; not all of them are true. Simply writing a story down or repeating it to others does not testify to the inherent validity of the tale, itself. Ancient history is as much rumor and speculation as anything else.



"Cornelius Tactitus is regarded as the greatest historian of ancient Rome. Writing on the reign of Nero, Tacitus alludes to the death of Christ and to the existence of Christians in Rome."

It's not generally considered good board ethics to copy and paste passages like this word for word and present them as your own original thoughts. After everything I wrote to refute Marilyn Adamson's article, you answer with a Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V?


C'mon, Ivory. You can do better than that.

[MissTara]

nateboomer said:

Hi MissTara. Whenever someone has questions or doubts, everyone who has accepted Christ as Lord and Savior should always be ready to give an anwser for the hope that is within them. We should be ready to defend (not coerce, force or cram) the faith by stating Who, Why and What we believe.

-Nate "Boomer"

Thanks for the info, however click here temptsinfo.proboards10.com/index.cgi?board=lounge&action=display&thread=1081537249

[MissTara]

Keres said:

You didn`t like my Bible thread?? ;D

Just proves that a massive group of people with many different nationalities, cultures, and especially religion preferences cannot discuss this topic in a "friendly" form. Its just not possible. In the end, people get hurt or for a lack of better term pissed.

[Ivory Fair]

Beej, you'll forgive me, I have the flu. Don't have enough energy to write things using my own words at this moment. Those words weren't mine, but the notion was.

Yes, those verses indicate the Earth being round. Our interpretations of them differ.

And as for "I don't actually have a position on whether Jesus Christ ever lived" it's my understanding that Keres DOES have a position and that's what I was addressing.

LOL! Gotta love you Tara, always the peace maker! You see, the beauty of the way this message board is arranged is that if there is a topic someone is not interested in, or chooses not to participate in, they have the option to simply not VIEW the thread in question. (There is also the ever-open inviation that if people don't like this board, they can simply not come here, but that's one some folks have a hard time keeping with.)

While I cannot speak for anyone else, I can assure you that I hold no ill feelings toward Beej or Keres as a result of the "other" thread, so yes, it IS possible for folks to dicuss matters like this without unreconcilable drama ensuing.

But I do appreciate the concern. :wtg