The Temptations "Fantasy Lineup"

[70ssupremesfan]

Hi guys, I've just joined here and not checked every thread so PLEASE excuse me if I'm going over old (shaky) ground here but I'd like to say something about what would have been my ultimate lineup. I've been very lucky to see the Temps in concert here in the UK from 1970 (when I left school) onwards and I still love 'em as much as I love the Tops!

So, here goes: Melvin, Eddie, Ali-Ollie (My all-time favourite Tempts voice) Paul & Otis (Sorry David fans - I did/do like his voice but when I heard Ali on record and then live I was completely sold!

ps. I call myself 70'ssupremesfan because although I liked The Supremes in the 60's, when I heard and saw Jean Terrell debut with the group in 1970 she has remained my favourite female voice in the group. I always thought Motown put far too much of the accent on Ross.

[eyehearttempts]

What's up, 70ssupremesfan?! I don't really have a fantasy line up. The C5 to me were the "Dream Team". Can't leave out Dennis, though!

[ramzy]

Whats going on. Hey I have to admit I'm an Ali Woodson fan like you. He is definitely the most talented lead singer to have ever been with the tempts. Thats saying a lot because there has been some awesome guys in there. That doesn't include todays version however.

[DrTemptation "Doc T"]

stringslady22 said:

What's up, 70ssupremesfan?! I don't really have a fantasy line up. The C5 to me were the "Dream Team". Can't leave out Dennis, though!

I don't think you can have a fantasy lineup. The Original 5 plus Dennis has laid the foundation.....and every lineup from now on will sing the songs of the Original 5 plus Dennis

Doc T

[irene170]

drtemptation said:

stringslady22 said:

What's up, 70ssupremesfan?! I don't really have a fantasy line up. The C5 to me were the "Dream Team". Can't leave out Dennis, though!

I don't think you can have a fantasy lineup. The Original 5 plus Dennis has laid the foundation.....and every lineup from now on will sing the songs of the Original 5 plus Dennis


Doc T

Exactly! There is no topping the C5 and Dennis.

[DC]

70ssupremesfan said:

Hi guys, I've just joined here and not checked every thread so PLEASE excuse me if I'm going over old (shaky) ground here but I'd like to say something about what would have been my ultimate lineup. I've been very lucky to see the Temps in concert here in the UK from 1970 (when I left school) onwards and I still love 'em as much as I love the Tops!

So, here goes: Melvin, Eddie, Ali-Ollie (My all-time favourite Tempts voice) Paul & Otis (Sorry David fans - I did/do like his voice but when I heard Ali on record and then live I was completely sold!

ps. I call myself 70'ssupremesfan because although I liked The Supremes in the 60's, when I heard and saw Jean Terrell debut with the group in 1970 she has remained my favourite female voice in the group. I always thought Motown put far too much of the accent on Ross.

Ali is a bad boy no doubt. The funny thing is if you listen to David's solo work Ali and his styles are nearly identical. It's obvious Ali was heavily influenced by David. The only difference is David wasn't allowed to let loose when he was in the Tempts. They let Ali go to church on all the songs he did when he was with the Tempts.

I truly didn't know how talented David was until I heard his solo albums. His vocal skills are out of this world. For further confirmation check out the song "World Of Darkness" on David's "My Whole World Ended" album. After this theres no debate Ruff had 1 of the best voices in music history period.

But to me at least you can compare David and Ali. But I hear alotta people compare Dennis with David and to me thats a joke. No disrespect to Dennis his contribution to the Tempts was incredible and he is an extremely talented singer, but he's not touching Ruffin. It's nothing personal it's just that David possessed a voice that only comes around once in a lifetime. His 3 octave range, his way to interpret a song, and him being able to go from baritone to falsetto. From the smooth "You'll lose a precious love" to the rough " I could never love another". David was just on another level.

[smooth]

I would have to pick either the c5 or the line-up with Dennis. Dennis was the best to me as well as Louis Price in terms of replacing Ruffin. I remember on many occasions I would be playing the temptations and somebody would walk into the room and hear Dennis singing and they would say he sounds like a preacher referring to Dennis Edwards,anyway Dennis' voice was so powerful ans soulful I felt like I was in church, it was like listening to a preacher on a record. I think David was great and so was Ali, but Dennis' voice had like a religious feel to it.And Dennis definitely tore up I'm Losing You and Ain't Too Proud To Beg, but of course My Girl belonged to David.

I don't think David was restricted,songs like I Wish It Would Rain and Ain't Too Proud To Beg, etc. His live performance of I'm Losing You, I think show him going to church.Ruffin on Walk Away From Love, showed me his great range, what a singer.

If I didnt pick the c5 or the line-up with Dennis, I would like to hear Melvin,Otis,Eddie,Richard,Dennis

[DC]

smooth said:

I would have to pick either the c5 or the line-up with Dennis. Dennis was the best to me as well as Louis Price in terms of replacing Ruffin. I remember on many occasions I would be playing the temptations and somebody would walk into the room and hear Dennis singing and they would say he sounds like a preacher referring to Dennis Edwards,anyway Dennis' voice was so powerful ans soulful I felt like I was in church, it was like listening to a preacher on a record. I think David was great and so was Ali, but Dennis' voice had like a religious feel to it.And Dennis definitely tore up I'm Losing You and Ain't Too Proud To Beg, but of course My Girl belonged to David.

I don't think David was restricted,songs like I Wish It Would Rain and Ain't Too Proud To Beg, etc. His live performance of I'm Losing You, I think show him going to church.Ruffin on Walk Away From Love, showed me his great range, what a singer.

If I didnt pick the c5 or the line-up with Dennis, I would like to hear Melvin,Otis,Eddie,Richard,Dennis

I guess what I mean by restricted more specifically is screaming;especially on recordings. The only song I remember David screaming on as a Tempt was at the end of "I Could Never Love Another", but on his solo material he screamed all the time. It just seemed to come naturally to him on his solo material. But I heard people say that the group wanted to keep things kinda of simple in the 60's, so they wouldn't quote/unquote alienate their commercial audience.

Now when Ali arrived the Tempts allowed him to scream on every song and hit random high notes that were obviously improv. But like you said on the "Im Losing You" performance on the Smothers Brothers show they let David get loose. To be honest I was surprised they let him to that. But when they let him do his thing in that performance we all saw what he could do. Those high notes he was hitting were unreal, and he seemed to be hitting them with ease. Im pretty sure in live concert performances he prolly got a chance to work it too, but unfortunately we don't have access to that material yet.

[janebse]

Screaming is the right word. I have read that Smokey and Norman both kept David under strict control when making records. Those were records to sell they were making, and they knew what they wanted. Not everyone likes screaming. And both Smokey and Norman were strict.

David did scream a lot on the records he made after he left the Tempts. But the truth is they didn't sell that well. There are some singers today who scream, but, again, they cannot sell many of the records the put out themselves.

As for live concerts, the ones I remember David did not do that much screaming. Occasionally he did, but there were 5 guys in the group and all had to work together. If one can't work with the group, well.....

The same way with dancing. In his book Cholly talks about how difficult it was to get David to dance the choreographed steps. But again, everything was planned to correspond with the music, to be able to reach the mike and to save some air to sing. Jumping all over the place is not what made the Tempts famous. If you saw David on stage after he left the Tempts, he did not move much.

I have been to concerts where a singer screams. Afterwards, people are commenting they could not understand a word he sang. I guess the end result is whether you want to be successful commercially. Sometimes, instead of screaming, I think of it as vocal acrobatics.

[Beej]

dc said:

I truly didn't know how talented David was until I heard his solo albums. His vocal skills are out of this world. For further confirmation check out the song "World Of Darkness" on David's "My Whole World Ended" album. After this theres no debate Ruff had 1 of the best voices in music history period.

But to me at least you can compare David and Ali. But I hear alotta people compare Dennis with David and to me thats a joke. No disrespect to Dennis his contribution to the Tempts was incredible and he is an extremely talented singer, but he's not touching Ruffin. It's nothing personal it's just that David possessed a voice that only comes around once in a lifetime. His 3 octave range, his way to interpret a song, and him being able to go from baritone to falsetto. From the smooth "You'll lose a precious love" to the rough " I could never love another". David was just on another level.

Well said.

Too many people just listen to the C5 and think they know everything there is to know about David Ruffin. They don't know beans. To hear the real David Ruffin -- the great David Ruffin -- you have to listen to his solo work...and not just the four or five songs readily available online. His greatest vocals weren't on the singles.

smooth said:

I don't think David was restricted,songs like I Wish It Would Rain and Ain't Too Proud To Beg, etc. His live performance of I'm Losing You, I think show him going to church.

He was restricted...greatly. The performances you cite are nothing compared to his solo work between '69-'71. The one song he recorded with the Temptations that comes closest to emulating his sound during that period is "He Who Picks A Rose." Even then, it's tame by comparison.

smooth said:

Ruffin on Walk Away From Love, showed me his great range...

Nah..."Walk Away From Love" comes from his "meek" period...the Van McCoy years. David's vocals were extremely subdued. If you want to hear his range, you have to listen to his first four albums...including the "unreleased" album. In my mind, that was the best work of his career.

janebse said:

Screaming is the right word. I have read that Smokey and Norman both kept David under strict control when making records. Those were records to sell they were making, and they knew what they wanted. Not everyone likes screaming. And both Smokey and Norman were strict.

Actually, I think "screaming" is the wrong word.

That implies an uncontrolled outburst. David knew exactly what he was doing. He knew when and where to add emphasis -- when to send his voice soaring to hit an inconceivable note -- but it was never uncontrolled. He made it work within the construction of the song. Those unique vocal accents made the songs better; they're what set him apart from his peers and what so many vocalists after him have tried but failed to capture.

[smooth]

janebse said:

Screaming is the right word. I have read that Smokey and Norman both kept David under strict control when making records. Those were records to sell they were making, and they knew what they wanted. Not everyone likes screaming. And both Smokey and Norman were strict.

David did scream a lot on the records he made after he left the Tempts. But the truth is they didn't sell that well. There are some singers today who scream, but, again, they cannot sell many of the records the put out themselves.

As for live concerts, the ones I remember David did not do that much screaming. Occasionally he did, but there were 5 guys in the group and all had to work together. If one can't work with the group, well.....

The same way with dancing. In his book Cholly talks about how difficult it was to get David to dance the choreographed steps. But again, everything was planned to correspond with the music, to be able to reach the mike and to save some air to sing. Jumping all over the place is not what made the Tempts famous. If you saw David on stage after he left the Tempts, he did not move much.

I have been to concerts where a singer screams. Afterwards, people are commenting they could not understand a word he sang. I guess the end result is whether you want to be successful commercially. Sometimes, instead of screaming, I think of it as vocal acrobatics.

You are 100% right, they didn't sell that well, and some people don't like all of that screaming or vocal acrobatics.

[smooth]

beej said:

dc said:

I truly didn't know how talented David was until I heard his solo albums. His vocal skills are out of this world. For further confirmation check out the song "World Of Darkness" on David's "My Whole World Ended" album. After this theres no debate Ruff had 1 of the best voices in music history period.

But to me at least you can compare David and Ali. But I hear alotta people compare Dennis with David and to me thats a joke. No disrespect to Dennis his contribution to the Tempts was incredible and he is an extremely talented singer, but he's not touching Ruffin. It's nothing personal it's just that David possessed a voice that only comes around once in a lifetime. His 3 octave range, his way to interpret a song, and him being able to go from baritone to falsetto. From the smooth "You'll lose a precious love" to the rough " I could never love another". David was just on another level.

Well said.

Too many people just listen to the C5 and think they know everything there is to know about David Ruffin. They don't know beans. To hear the real David Ruffin -- the great David Ruffin -- you have to listen to his solo work...and not just the four or five songs readily available online. His greatest vocals weren't on the singles.



He was restricted...greatly. The performances you cite are nothing compared to his solo work between '69-'71. The one song he recorded with the Temptations that comes closest to emulating his sound during that period is "He Who Picks A Rose." Even then, it's tame by comparison.


Nah..."Walk Away From Love" comes from his "meek" period...the Van McCoy years. David's vocals were extremely subdued. If you want to hear his range, you have to listen to his first four albums...including the "unreleased" album. In my mind, that was the best work of his career.

janebse said:

Screaming is the right word. I have read that Smokey and Norman both kept David under strict control when making records. Those were records to sell they were making, and they knew what they wanted. Not everyone likes screaming. And both Smokey and Norman were strict.

Actually, I think "screaming" is the wrong word.

That implies an uncontrolled outburst. David knew exactly what he was doing. He knew when and where to add emphasis -- when to send his voice soaring to hit an inconceivable note -- but it was never uncontrolled. He made it work within the construction of the song. Those unique vocal accents made the songs better; they're what set him apart from his peers and what so many vocalists after him have tried but failed to capture.

Ruffin in I Wish It Would Rain is arguably his best. I've heard his solo work and it pales in comparison to his work with The Temptations, IMO.

Ruffin did show his great range on Walk Away From Love,imo,and I know about his first 4 albums because I have all of them.

[Beej]

smooth said:

Ruffin in I Wish It Would Rain is arguably his best. I've heard his solo work and it pales in comparison to his work with The Temptations, IMO.

In your opinion is right. That's certainly not the general consensus among David Ruffin fans. His biggest commercial hits came as the front man for the Tempts, but his vocal abilities weren't fully realized on vinyl until he went solo. I find that it's usually the Temptations fans who have a difficult time looking at the quality of David and Eddie's solo material objectively or considering the possibility that they were actually better artists on their own.

It's not a matter of what people prefer...it's just an acknowledgment that they grew as artists once they were free of the Temptations formula. I don't know if that ruins people's fantasies or what. It doesn't devalue what they accomplished with the group at all.

smooth said:

Ruffin did show his great range on Walk Away From Love,imo,and I know about his first 4 albums because I have all of them.

Using them as coasters, no doubt.

[DC]

beej said:

smooth said:

Ruffin in I Wish It Would Rain is arguably his best. I've heard his solo work and it pales in comparison to his work with The Temptations, IMO.

In your opinion is right. That's certainly not the general consensus among David Ruffin fans. His biggest commercial hits came as the front man for the Tempts, but his vocal abilities weren't fully realized on vinyl until he went solo. I find that it's usually the Temptations fans who have a difficult time looking at the quality of David and Eddie's solo material objectively or considering the possibility that they were actually better artists on their own.

It's not a matter of what people prefer...it's just an acknowledgment that they grew as artists once they were free of the Temptations formula. I don't know if that ruins people's fantasies or what. It doesn't devalue what they accomplished with the group at all.

smooth said:

Ruffin did show his great range on Walk Away From Love,imo,and I know about his first 4 albums because I have all of them.

Using them as coasters, no doubt.

I absolutely agree. I believe if David and Eddie were promoted properly they could have had great solo careers. But because the C-5 team became so popular that people could only imagine them in that light. Because that was 1 of the best combinations in music history they become synonymous with that. But you can't deny that as solo artists they had so much to offer. But it's not going to be fare when your label doesn't push your products. When they do you have no worries about expressing yourself as an artist.

A few examples: The Four Tops said when they recorded "Reach Out" that they hated in. Duke even said that they didn't even want Motown to release it because its sounded strange to them, but it turned out to be there biggest hit to this day.

Stevie Wonder 1st premiered "Superstition" at the Apollo before it was released. And as we all know the Apollo is one of the meccas of music. They say you're not an artist unless you perform there. Well Mr. Stevie Wonder got booed when he played that song. The Apollo audience hated that song. But when it was released it was a huge smash. I think it's at least in the top 3-5 of Stevie's biggest selling singles. But Stevie had the juice and Motown pushed it.

Same thing with Marvin Gaye's "What's Going On". Motown didn't wanna release it; they didn't believe it could be a hit and was to controversial talking about Vietnam. Marvin told them point blank "If you don't release it im leaving Motown", he had that power they released it and it was a smash. Do you think Eddie and David ever had this type of influence over Motown? Just something to think about.

[Beej]

dc said:

I believe if David and Eddie were promoted properly they could have had great solo careers. But because the C-5 team became so popular that people could only imagine them in that light. Because that was 1 of the best combinations in music history they become synonymous with that. But you can't deny that as solo artists they had so much to offer. But it's not going to be fare when your label doesn't push your products. When they do you have no worries about expressing yourself as an artist.

Yep.

Eddie's solo career wasn't too shabby -- more R&B Top 10s as a solo artist than he had singing lead with the Tempts -- but it wasn't long-lived, either. Unlike David, his voice was shot by the early '80s. It's tough to promote someone who can't sing his biggest hits live anymore.

I have the Live Aid performances from 1985. Eddie's voice was already as bad then as it was in the early-'90s. David, on the other hand, was still able to do his signature "microphone-behind-the-back-spin-and-drop-to-a-split" move. He looked healthy and sounded great.

Of course, that didn't last long, either.

dc said:

Do you think Eddie and David ever had this type of influence over Motown? Just something to think about.

Geez, Eddie had to sign away his rights to all future royalties just to leave Motown and go to Arista in '78...and he was the commercially successful one of the two.