Is It ME?

[jusme]

If any of you have kept your T.V.s on longer than a second each day, chances are, you've seen something on the infamous Mary Kay Letourneau and her up-coming marriage to her former sudent. I just have a few questions: is it me, or are people treating this woman like some kind of hero? What in the world is going on with society? I mean, they act as though what she did was not only the right thing, but they're actually rewarding her for it. They're actually buying them gifts from their registry and sending them to their house, along with letters saying how inspiring their story is. I saw on E.T. that one lady even went as far as to apologize to Letourneau for what "society has done to you". How can these people be serious? Since when did it become "inspiring" for a thirty-four year-old woman to have sex with a thirteen-year-old boy and continue the relationship through seven years of prison? As far as I'm concerned, she should still be sitting in prison. He may be a grown man now, but she acts as though it was never wrong.

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[Beej]

Basically, my thoughts are the same as yours.

She's a convicted child rapist and a registered sex offender. Which part of that is supposed to be romantic?

You know exactly how this would've been covered had it been a male teacher and a female child. Why the double standard? Both are clearly wrong, but her case is obviously viewed by a certain number of people as a story of two long lost lovers who overcame adversity to be united at last.

Sick.


In my world, anyone convicted of a sex crime against a child would serve a life sentence with no possibility of parole. Now, if I could only get enough folks to elect me "Master of the Universe," we'll get started.

;D

[kalisa2]

Beej said:

Basically, my thoughts are the same as yours.

She's a convicted child rapist and a registered sex offender. Which part of that is supposed to be romantic?

You know exactly how this would've been covered had it been a male teacher and a female child. Why the double standard? Both are clearly wrong, but her case is obviously viewed by a certain number of people as a story of two long lost lovers who overcame adversity to be united at last.

Sick.


In my world, anyone convicted of a sex crime against a child would serve a life sentence with no possibility of parole. Now, if I could only get enough folks to elect me "Master of the Universe," we'll get started.

;D

Beej... I see a huge difference between forcible rape (of a child or any other person) and statutory rape (as this case apparently was). So, while I do believe this woman, or any other adult who is convicted of sex with a minor, needs to be a registered sex offender and certainly not exposed to school children (what happens when her little-boy love grows up and becomes too old/mature for her taste... she finds another at school? HA! doesn't work for me...) anyways, I don't feel that they need to be sent to jail for life. We get into the 18 year old boy/girl having consensual sex with a 17 year old, with your scenario.

That said, this woman has a major screw or two loose (pardon the pun~) to find a child of 14 sexually attractive/irresistable. IMO. He doesn't seem particularly mature/fascinating even now as a young adult. But I have no place to judge that really.

I have no problem with 'intergenerational relationships' as she called it... but there has to be a line somewhere, with the adult being the one who supposedly has the maturity to draw that line. This woman didn't/doesn't, obviously. She needed to be punished, and was.

NOW, if they are still in love, they need to do whatever they wish as adults. But to make the big public hoo-hah like some unfortunate star crossed lovers who have been mistreated.... NOPE! And those strangers who have piled the gifts on are just as sick...IMO. Reminds me of those women who propose marriage to famous convicted criminals up to and including serial killers.

[MissTara]

Lawd Ham Urcy! She is just a lonely woman in search to "train" a fresh face.

[jusme]

kalisa2 said:

Reminds me of those women who propose marriage to famous convicted criminals up to and including serial killers.

I've always wondered what some of those women would do is someone called them and told them their husbands were getting out of prison. ;D

[Cadeho]

I've never really understood the media attention... I remember the movie and the following discussion. I really don't even care. This happens so much everyday and you never hear of it. I won't defend it because I stand behind statutory rape laws. I guess it's that saying people love to use now, "age ain't nothing but a number." Come on, look at R. Kelly! He's not going anywhere and it's a joke.

Then there are people who look older than they are and act more mature for their age. Then those older may end up loving them and thinking of them as something they're not. I think this is the case with the MKL.

Then there are those who blatantly know it's wrong but are in it for the thrill. Both parties may feel this way. and who knows they may start loving each other.

Then there are those who just don't care and do just to do. For the guy, if a teen, usually, any action no matter how old the female is is all fine and dandy. I have talked to way too many people who were sexually involved at 13 and 14 who had been with those older. They don't care at all as long as they were getting something. It's all very sad, but from my observations, I think those are the reasons for relationships as such.

[tabby]

In other societies it is not uncommon for very young girls to be married to older men. This happens mostly for biological reasons. Men are able to produce children way into old age, while women do not. So I don't see at least one logical aspect in such relationships.
The other way around, though, is kind of unnatural in my opinion.

[Beej]

"...I see a huge difference between forcible rape...and statutory rape..."

The law doesn't. Both are felonies. Both require the perpetrator to register as a convicted sex offender for the rest of his/her life. Sentencing will vary between the two because the element of force is present in one and not the other. The word "statutory" should not be interpreted as "RAPE-LITE," however...it simply refers to a state-mandated age or set of conditions required for an individual to provide legal consent. Having sexual relations with someone who is sufficiently intoxicated, passed out, mentally deficient or incapable of giving consent for any number of reasons is also statutory rape (providing no threat or use of force was involved)...and also a felony.



"We get into the 18 year old boy/girl having consensual sex with a 17 year old, with your scenario."

No we don't. A 17-year-old boy is not a child...he's a freshman in college. Vili Fualaau was 12 years old (not 13...not 14) when they first had sex...a sixth grader at Shorewood Elementary School. There's no comparison between the two scenarios. He was a child; she was an adult and a recognized authority figure. That's as clear a case of an adult corrupting the morals of a minor as you can find. The law can be -- and is -- very definitive about making such distinctions. Your hypothetical horny teenagers aren't even in the same ballpark. On the rare -- and I stress RARE -- occasion that such a case is prosecuted, it's most often at the insistence of the 17-year-old's parent(s).



"In other societies it is not uncommon for very young girls to be married to older men."

The operative word is "OTHER." In America, the determining factor is what's in the best interest of the child. We, collectively, have decided that it's neither healthy nor beneficial in any constructive way for children to be engaging in sexual relations with each other or with adults. They're not equipped psychologically, emotionally, financially, or otherwise, for the consequences of such actions. The real goal is to protect and prevent them from engaging in life-altering and potentially dangerous acts which they don't fully understand.

Adults who harbor a sexual interest in children are called pedophiles...and when they act on those feelings, they're called criminals. Given the choice of social models, I greatly prefer our view of acceptable adult/child relationships to those of other cultures.

[kalisa2]

"We get into the 18 year old boy/girl having consensual sex with a 17 year old, with your scenario."

No we don't. A 17-year-old boy is not a child...he's a freshman in college. Vili Fualaau was 12 years old (not 13...not 14) when they first had sex...a sixth grader at Shorewood Elementary School. There's no comparison between the two scenarios. He was a child; she was an adult and a recognized authority figure. That's as clear a case of an adult corrupting the morals of a minor as you can find. The law can be -- and is -- very definitive about making such distinctions. Your hypothetical horny teenagers aren't even in the same ballpark. On the rare -- and I stress RARE -- occasion that such a case is prosecuted, it's most often at the insistence of the 17-year-old's parent(s).

I was simply pointing out the fine line between what the law says, and reality. What this woman did was W.R.O.N.G. for all the reasons you pointed out. But when arbitrary age lines are drawn... the 17 year old is a child and the 18 year old is an adult. By law.

12, 13, 14 year old boys do tend to be "young, dumb and full of c__" (to quote everybody's favorite author here LOL!) (Just last nite watched VH1 "Behind the Music" about New Edition, and they were saying "We were doing things we shouldn't have been doing...", I'm sure he meant with regards to girls...they were age approx. 13-14 in the time frame they were talking about.)

As for corrupting the morals of this minor... in this case only... time SEEMS to have proven otherwise. What is he doing with his corrupted morals? Marrying the mother of his two children, who is also the corrupter of his morals. Doesn't sound too corrupt to me, over the long term. (Neither is it worthy of reward, such as the pile of gifts from strangers that I saw on TV.)

Again, it was wrong. As a parent, I am appalled. As you said, she was an adult and an authority figure and in responsibility for setting an example to children for acceptible behavior codes as well as teaching (whatever she taught). She HAS been punished, and will continue to be (by registering as a sex offender, and hopefully keeping her butt away from other young kids). But I don't think life sentence in jail IN THIS CASE or similar is appropriate. I still see a huge difference here between her actions and those of an habitual sexual predator who snatches up children and molests them. Or MJ. He didn't propose .

[Beej]

"But when arbitrary age lines are drawn... the 17 year old is a child and the 18 year old is an adult. By law."[/i]

Well, not exactly. Legal age of consent for sexual activity varies from state to state. There are actually some places in this country where a fourteen-year-old can give legal consent, but (thankfully) that's only two or three states. About eight or ten states do set the limit at eighteen, but the vast majority hover in that gray area between 16-17. Whichever one you pick for the sake of argument, the law -- across the board -- makes a pretty clear distinction between older teenagers (those in highschool or starting college) and children aged 12 and under. That's what I'm getting at here. Hypothetical arguments about teenagers engaging in sex might make for an interesting legal debate, but the actual line that's been drawn in our society isn't nearly as fine or arbitrary as you seem to think. Twelve- and thirteen-year-olds -- no matter how "mature" they may seem on the surface -- are not equipped to make a rational, sensible, informed decision about sex when approached by an adult; they easily mistake coercion and manipulation for attention and affection. The adults who prey on these children are the ones I'd like to see out of society for good...no exceptions.



"As for corrupting the morals of this minor... in this case only... time SEEMS to have proven otherwise. What is he doing with his corrupted morals? Marrying the mother of his two children, who is also the corrupter of his morals. Doesn't sound too corrupt to me, over the long term..."[/i]

Uh, actually he's had quite a few problems according to reports -- from drug abuse, to depression, to legal problems (among them, a guilty plea and probation for car theft) -- and he unsuccessfully filed a lawsuit against the school district in 2002 for failing to protect him from a sexual predator...you know, his fiancee. He's got no education...no apparent job skills. He's got a criminal record, a certified whack job for a mother and the woman he intends to marry (at least, for now) is the same one who molested and, yes, raped him when he was a child.

This ain't exactly a "happily ever after" fairy tale.

You don't have to be a board-certified psychologist to recognize that he's got some serious deep-seeded issues that may not fully materialize for years to come...but they will. You can't have something like that happen to you in your childhood and not have problems. Look at Mary Kay. She was molested by an older brother when she was seven and watched her father's political career go up in flames when it was discovered that he sired two children out of wedlock to a former student of his.



"I still see a huge difference here between her actions and those of an habitual sexual predator who snatches up children and molests them."[/i]

I'm reasonably confident in saying the victims wouldn't see it that way. All it takes is one incident to rob a child of his/her innocence.




We see this issue differently, that's all. These people are ALL messed in the head. The worst thing they could've done was bring two more children into the world. I'm just thankful none of them lives nextdoor to me.

[kalisa2]

Beej said:

"But when arbitrary age lines are drawn... the 17 year old is a child and the 18 year old is an adult. By law."

[/i]

Well, not exactly. Legal age of consent for sexual activity varies from state to state. There are actually some places in this country where a fourteen-year-old can give legal consent, but (thankfully) that's only two or three states. About eight or ten states do set the limit at eighteen, but the vast majority hover in that gray area between 16-17. Whichever one you pick for the sake of argument, the law -- across the board -- makes a pretty clear distinction between older teenagers (those in highschool or starting college) and children aged 12 and under. That's what I'm getting at here. Hypothetical arguments about teenagers engaging in sex might make for an interesting legal debate, but the actual line that's been drawn in our society isn't nearly as fine or arbitrary as you seem to think. Twelve- and thirteen-year-olds -- no matter how "mature" they may seem on the surface -- are not equipped to make a rational, sensible, informed decision about sex when approached by an adult; they easily mistake coercion and manipulation for attention and affection. The adults who prey on these children are the ones I'd like to see out of society for good...no exceptions.



"As for corrupting the morals of this minor... in this case only... time SEEMS to have proven otherwise. What is he doing with his corrupted morals? Marrying the mother of his two children, who is also the corrupter of his morals. Doesn't sound too corrupt to me, over the long term..."[/i]

Uh, actually he's had quite a few problems according to reports -- from drug abuse, to depression, to legal problems (among them, a guilty plea and probation for car theft) -- and he unsuccessfully filed a lawsuit against the school district in 2002 for failing to protect him from a sexual predator...you know, his fiancee. He's got no education...no apparent job skills. He's got a criminal record, a certified whack job for a mother and the woman he intends to marry (at least, for now) is the same one who molested and, yes, raped him when he was a child.

This ain't exactly a "happily ever after" fairy tale.

You don't have to be a board-certified psychologist to recognize that he's got some serious deep-seeded issues that may not fully materialize for years to come...but they will. You can't have something like that happen to you in your childhood and not have problems. Look at Mary Kay. She was molested by an older brother when she was seven and watched her father's political career go up in flames when it was discovered that he sired two children out of wedlock to a former student of his.



"I still see a huge difference here between her actions and those of an habitual sexual predator who snatches up children and molests them."[/i]

I'm reasonably confident in saying the victims wouldn't see it that way. All it takes is one incident to rob a child of his/her innocence.




We see this issue differently, that's all. These people are ALL messed in the head. The worst thing they could've done was bring two more children into the world. I'm just thankful none of them lives nextdoor to me.
[/quote]

Yes we do see it differently. I see young people growing up way to soon way too often, 11, 12 and 13 year old girls managing to fix themselves up to look older and become (what I would consider) sexual predators themselves. Not all of them come from dysfunctional homes with uncaring or molesting parents. They sneak. (Boys have a tougher time looking older, without the accessibility of make-up, falsies etc. to help). Trying to look at other angles here.

I was unaware of this boy's history for the past 7 years, I really haven't watched most of the coverage. Except that he did appear to still be fairly inarticulate or undereducated, from the few moments interview I saw of him.

[2Sweet]

This was a grown behind married woman with 4 children already. I heard her say something about being with someone but not loving them. Was this 12 year old THAT much more mature in interesting, that you would actually fall "in love" with him and leave your family? He made a statement that hes never told any other woman that he loves her. Heck, he never got the chance!! She coochie whipped him when he was twelve! I think its sad that this woman would rob him of his innocence all in the name of "love". What did he know about love at age twelve. And now, hes 22. What does he really know? I noticed that they were sitting around opening a bunch of wedding gifts. If I were his mother, I would have knocked the mess out of her dumb butt from the jump. How dare she! Like the saying goes, "if you love me, you will wait". She was that much in love but couldnt wait? Now Ive seen some younger dudes with really nice bodies, but was it really THAT appealing? Come on now, dont give me that. I'll be glad when he gets older and meets someone who really deserves him, not someone who manipulated and took advantage of his youth from the start. Of course he still wants her! Im not shocked. They were intimate and she was probably his first. Most women feel the same way under those circumstances.

[Cadeho]

www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

Beej, really I am not saying you're wrong, however, you injected some personal opinion into your argument, "There are actually some places in this country where a fourteen-year-old can give legal consent, but (thankfully) that's only two or three states." Who are you to legislate or to call a state wrong? Iowa, Missouri, and South Carolina are the states where a 14 year old could possibly consent. The states with age of consent of 18 are the minority. Most are now 16 or 17. I would guess you'd go preaching to other countries such as Mexico, Canada, and South Korea because of how you feel? That is why people hate us! You'd be as right as Oprah preaching to some Islamic cultures who practice female circumcision. Just because we don't do it and think it's right doesn't mean you can force your views on someone else. May I ask you how old you were? Abided by the law?

I thought Vili Fualaau was a 14 year old sixth grader. He had been held back correct? He has had a troubled past. Who cares what skills he has or doesn't now, or if he needs Dr. Phil? I certainly do not care if he and MKL live or die. They're both adults now so let them live. She loves him, they have 2 kids, she's out of jail... I doubt she'll be eyeing other younger boys. I don't even think she was a habitual pedophile. She just happened to fall in love with an underaged boy. How you could judge the maturity of some young folks? They aren't all the same. This one probably wasn't too mature, but maybe some of the other similar cases you haven't heard were.

I'm not defending such behavior, but their special case, I, for some reason, just do not care and haven't since I was a teen when the story broke. I did think it was a crazy story for her to end up with 2 kids by him and that she couldn't stay away. But this case is different. I don't know why and I guess that's what's drawn all the attention. We know it wasn't right but yet we're fascinated to a degree. They're going to be covered until they die.

I throw a fit hearing a 21 year old dating and involved with a 16 year old or even a 17 with an 18 year old. My old, old co-workers in 2003 shocked me with the ages they started having sex, most were between 13 and 14. Some with someone their age, others with someone older. And given how it is hard to find a black person, specifically, a virgin at 16 or 18, my conclusion is they all begin early, way too early. But it's not just young black kids. It's happening everywhere, the state of our world. Some can say it's their environment, what they see and hear. I probably saw and heard all the things that they say turn children into monsters how did it not turn me into one? Maybe I am just better than those people.

Then there are the hypocrites, and this land is full of them, who did the same and then all of a sudden sweep their pasts under the rug so they can throw stones at will.

[Cadeho]

2Sweet said:

This was a grown behind married woman with 4 children already. I heard her say something about being with someone but not loving them. Was this 12 year old THAT much more mature in interesting, that you would actually fall "in love" with him and leave your family? He made a statement that hes never told any other woman that he loves her. Heck, he never got the chance!! She coochie whipped him when he was twelve! I think its sad that this woman would rob him of his innocence all in the name of "love". What did he know about love at age twelve. And now, hes 22. What does he really know? I noticed that they were sitting around opening a bunch of wedding gifts. If I were his mother, I would have knocked the mess out of her dumb butt from the jump. How dare she! Like the saying goes, "if you love me, you will wait". She was that much in love but couldnt wait? Now Ive seen some younger dudes with really nice bodies, but was it really THAT appealing? Come on now, dont give me that. I'll be glad when he gets older and meets someone who really deserves him, not someone who manipulated and took advantage of his youth from the start. Of course he still wants her! Im not shocked. They were intimate and she was probably his first. Most women feel the same way under those circumstances.

Great points, especially what I highlighted. She should have done that. She wasn't right in her mind anyway.

[2Sweet]

Yeah, shes not. He was even suicidal at one point or another, because of trying to deal with all of the backlash of her foolishness. I'm just tired of the interviews portraying this like some fairytale love story just because she was in jail for 7 years, and I guess he "waited" on her! Is he financially stable enough to marry and help take care of someone else (his mom is raising his kids)? What other young girl was gonna be willing to step in his moms position and assume the fiscal responsibility of taking care of his two 'chiren' for him?

MKL is even going to have her other children in the wedding, SO SHE SAYS. If I were her ex-husband living all the way in Alaska, I wouldnt allow it. I kind of expect things of this nature out of him, because hes still young. SHE needs to grow up.