Michael Jackson Trial

[tabby]

((Tara)) I agree, it is very difficult to handle cases in which the rich ar involved. And I say "rich" without any other description attached. Money has always helped people to get out of difficult situations -- not only criminals.
I remember the debates about abortion in Germany during the late 60's early 70's. While the resolution was pending, the rich ladies travelled first class to Holland, England or whereever they pleased to get the problem taken care of, while the regular folks either had to have the babies or went to some quack who may or may not have known what he was doing.
In the abortion example the issue disussed publicly was only a sham; the true issue was the loss of control by men over their women folk. If men couldn't keep their wives barefoot and pregnant, what would be next?
The same is true for the "rich and black" problem. I think most of the people who claim that OJ Simpson was guilty just don't mind so much his having killed his wife than having been able to get away with it despite being black. They see their control over the designated "black sheep of society" vanish.

[tabby]

((Beej)) To address just one of the many points in your post I don't agree with: just because people don't tell you straight in the face what they think doesn't mean they don't feel that way.
When I was young I had German, American, African, French ... friends (boys). We all went to the same club on weekends, and we had a wonderful time -- until the night I danced one time too many with the black boy who later became my husband. Some of my dear German friends, who liked them black GIs and their music so much, began to complain that they no longer seemed to be good enough for me. When one of them asked me for a dance, the others told him he had no chance because he wasn't black.
These were the guys who had learned the "dab" and spoke black American English ... Yet, when it came to keeping the German girls for the German boys, things were not so rosy anymore. I must say, though, that we still are in contact with the friends who had no problem with not being black
All in all, before I haven't seen people act out their believes, I don't take their words for the gospel.

[temptationslover]

HE DIDNT DO ANYTHING THEY ARE JUST MAD BECAUSE HE CAN SING AND THEY CANT AND I THINK THAT LITTLE BOY SHOULD DIE 4 SAYING THAT BOUT HIM.....SO WHY DONT THE PEOPLE WHO SAID THAT JUST GO TO HELLLLL NO 1 DESERVES THAT NOT EVEN M.J.

[MissTara]

tabby said:

((Tara)) I agree, it is very difficult to handle cases in which the rich ar involved. And I say "rich" without any other description attached. Money has always helped people to get out of difficult situations -- not only criminals.
I remember the debates about abortion in Germany during the late 60's early 70's. While the resolution was pending, the rich ladies travelled first class to Holland, England or whereever they pleased to get the problem taken care of, while the regular folks either had to have the babies or went to some quack who may or may not have known what he was doing.
In the abortion example the issue disussed publicly was only a sham; the true issue was the loss of control by men over their women folk. If men couldn't keep their wives barefoot and pregnant, what would be next?
The same is true for the "rich and black" problem. I think most of the people who claim that OJ Simpson was guilty just don't mind so much his having killed his wife than having been able to get away with it despite being black. They see their control over the designated "black sheep of society" vanish.

It sucks that we live in this kind of society, and its ashame that there aren't more people like Martin Luther King Jr, and myself in this world. ;D I know that sounds weird, but hey, it's true.

Continuing the subject, my earlier post does not imply (I hope) that I think OJ or MJ is innocent. As far as Oj's case goes, personally, I think he did it. MJ's case, the only thing I can say is that I hope for everyone's sake he didn't do it.

[tabby]

I don't think OJ killed his wife. Of course, nobody knows for sure. All I remember from that trial is that the police did teir best to prove that they arte corrupt through and through. The blood samples that were carried around for days before they could be examined, the obvious racism of Fuhrmann ... If OJ is guilty and went free, it is the police's fault! They discvredited themselves and their investigations enough to let a murderer go free.

I MJ's case, I also don't believe the accusations, although I didn't follow his case quite as closely as OJ's.

[Beej]

You know, ABA, I probably owe you an apology as well. On review, I may have read more into what you said than was actually there. To me, it came across as a swipe that I (we) don't really care about justice...I'm (we're) just mad because a black man "beat us at our own game." That's the kind of talk I can't stomach. It's like a bad Oliver Stone conspiracy theory...with about as much factual integrity. If you were simply offering your thoughts from your personal experiences, however, I apologize. I certainly haven't lived your life, don't know who you associate with and haven't faced the same obstacles you have.

The point I was trying to hammer home is that white Americans just don't cooperate or look out for one another to that extent. We're not some monolith. Generally speaking, the only time whites are ever really unified about anything is when American servicemen are fighting a war on foreign soil...and even then you still have a certain percentage of left-wing nutjobs hoping we lose. There are just so damn many of us in this country that we don't have any special affinity for one another. We divide ourselves by wealth, politics, religion, age, gender, sexuality, etc., to establish our own identities.

Let me put it this way...

If you walked into a room and saw 20 white people and one black man, what are the odds that you'd gravitate toward that guy and strike up a conversation before the evening came to a close...50/50? Higher maybe? Now, if the roles were reversed and I walked into a room with 20 blacks and one white man, do you know what the odds are? One-in-21. In fact, there's a real good chance we wouldn't even acknowledge one another. I just don't feel a sense of kinship or relief from seeing another white face in the crowd. Odds are, he's a doofus...and he's probably thinking something very similar about me.

Again, generally speaking, white-collar whites rarely, if ever, associate with blue-collar whites in an informal or social setting. Conservatives, like myself, can't stand dealing with idiot liberals...and vice versa. Religion? Oh, boy! My grandparents wouldn't permit my mother to marry a Catholic...so my dad became Presbyterian (it's all the same to him.) It sounds ridiculous, but that's the kind of stuff we do to segregate ourselves from other whites. It's like we almost look for reasons to divide ourselves into little cliques.

That's what I'm ultimately getting at...this notion that white Americans -- from wealthy to poor -- have somehow joined forces in a massive conspiracy against black Americans is completely asinine. And that's why the "rich black man" theory sounds so absurd to someone like me. Maybe if you take a poll among the country club community, it holds a little more water...I don't know...I don't associate with those people. Most of us just have too much to deal with in our own lives to sit around worrying about whether or not others are getting ahead...let alone worrying about the color of their skin. It just isn't important.

The bulk of white America is middle-class. They bust their rears to put food on the table, provide for their families and do their best to raise their kids with a little common sense. They don't get any special privileges or wield any power...not economic, not political...they just live their lives. That's why I think it's irresponsible -- and even ignorant -- to make blanket statements critical of whites in general when we're really talking about the wealthy and powerful. Believe me, we're not one in the same. We might all look alike to someone of another race, but we clearly live by different rules.



"As a race, African-Americans know a hell of lot more about white people than they do about us."

In the manner you phrased it, I'd agree, but I think it's also relevant to point out that you'll get mixed results if you dig a little deeper and look at age and location. I think younger whites have a much better grasp than their parents or grandparents...and I think urban whites have a better familiarity than their rural counterparts. If you live in an integrated community -- rather than predominantly black or predominantly white -- I think you can't help but have a better sense...or, at least, less uneasiness. With respect to young people, I don't know that white kids are anymore unaware or immune from black issues or black culture than vice versa. I mean, we're certainly not going to learn about one another from MTV...and pop culture tends to play up the worst sterotypes of both. I think you're going to find a lot of inaccurate assumptions and misinformation on both sides, but -- as you say -- it is moving forward.

Isn't it a little embarassing to admit, though? I mean, it's just silly that this is even an issue. Maybe it says something about human nature...I don't know. Wounds heal over time, but the scars never seem to go away.

Honestly, ABA, I feel like I can say exactly what's on my mind and you'll give it consideration. I don't feel like I have to pull my punches or walk on pins and needles with you -- not that it's in my nature, anyway -- and I'd hope you feel the same toward me. Even when we have a misunderstanding (nothing new on a message board) we're still both adult enough to work through it. I have no more desire to offend you than you do me and I know we won't always see eye to eye. I do my best to read and consider your words carefully, though, because you're someone I've come to respect in the time I've been here. Your opinion matters to me and I admire the way you handle disagreements with a level of control. Even when someone's being completely irrational, you still manage to get your point across without going ballistic. I still need to work on that...though, I am getting a lot of practice with Anna.

The only way to really understand one another is through personal interaction...which is why falling back on sterotypes or focusing solely on the things that separate us is so unproductive...and why having open, honest conversations like this might actually make people think a little.

I had to laugh as I was reading your follow up posts, ABA. Here we are talking about all our differences and, yet, you and I are both here as Temptations fans and probably have more in common than either one of us even realizes.

With the exception of one Cherokee who snuck in there on my mother's side, all of my ancestors came over from Europe between 1853 and 1902. They had nothing and didn't speak the language. Almost across the board, they worked in the coal mines and steel mills...as did their children and grandchildren. I, too, was the first member of my family to ever graduate from college...and I imagine we both have a certain understanding of what it's like to feel the pressure to succeed -- not only for ourselves, but for the family -- and to experience the pride that comes from accomplishing that goal.

With respect to OJ, I, too, couldn't believe he was capable of something like that. The man was a Hall of Fame running back, movie star, well-known spokesman and TV personality and just came across as a genuinely nice guy. Then the trial happened and we saw the other side...the private life...the wife-beater, the jealous husband, the psycho. It wasn't any easier for me to sit there and hear the evidence against him than it was for you or anyone else. Up to that point, I would've proudly called myself an OJ Simpson fan. Reality is what it is, though...and he's a murderer. It's disappointing to be confronted with something like that about someone you like, but what can you do? Like Rae Carruth or Nate Newton or Jamal Lewis, it'll never make sense to me, either, how guys who seem to have so much can screw it up so badly.

The point is, sometimes it helps to acknowledge the things we have in common instead of always pointing about how we're different. Again, I apologize if I came across in an accusatory manner before. The way I interpreted your words was so out of character with what I've come to expect that I really wasn't sure what to think. Afterall, you and I have never really talked about this before.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to grab a shovel and clean up after one of Anna's messes again...

[Beej]

Anna...

"The prosecution even stooped so low to talk about his defense team as the 'Dream Team' implying that only the rich can aford such a team. The papers were full of allusions to whether he could 'buy' himself an acquittal or not. In y opinion, 'black and rich' still does not sit well with the American society in general."

Only the rich can afford such a team. F. Lee Bailey, Robert Shapiro and Johnnie Cochran were the definition of "high profile," "high stakes" attornies at that time. You and I couldn't have afforded ONE of them...let alone ALL of them. It's not just them, though, it's the resources they brought to the table and the level of scrutiny they were able to shine on the LAPD's sloppiness. The defense OJ was able to afford was unlike anything we could experience.

Oh, and "Dream Team" is a reference to the US Men's Olympic Basketball team when we started sending NBA All-stars instead of college players. They were the best of the best...and stomped the opposition with ease. If you see something derogatory in that, you're looking a lot harder than I.

With regard to your take on OJ, Mark Fuhrman and the evidence, I'll just say this...we have your views and we have reality...rarely do the two paths cross.




Tara...

"Meaning, if they were found guilty by a jury with 50% or more whites, everyone would say 'It's because he/she is black'"

That speaks to the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sentiment that is woven into the fabric of white America. If you're a straight, white, American male, you just learn to accept that you're ultimately going to be blamed for everything wrong in the world. It just comes with the territory...no big deal.






Kalisa...

While I understand your points and don't necessarily disagree with much of what you say, I have to address the notion of REASONABLE doubt.

Disregarding testimony because someone "looks like a Klansman" is not reasonable. Ignoring evidence because you "wouldn't put it past" the detectives to plant it is not reasonable. Bringing your own personal bigotry, fear and anger into a courtroom and allowing it to cloud your judgment is not reasonable.

As stated before, not one shred of evidence was presented by the defense to indicate anyone anywhere planted evidence to frame OJ Simpson...nothing. Yet, these jurors were somehow able to discern that a massive con job and cover up had taken place within the LAPD to "get" OJ. That, my dear, is not reasonable doubt...it's paranoia.

With regard to mishandling of evidence, yes it happened. It happens everywhere...all the time. The difference in this case was the level of scrutiny placed on every dotted-i and crossed-t. A sensible, reasonable person understands that evidence collection and processing in a city the size of LA is going to be a massive undertaking. The more people who handle the evidence, the more chance something will be done wrong. The question then becomes, what -- if anything -- was compromised? In other words, does it change the outcome? Again, if you're sensible and reasonable, the answer is no. Those were still OJ's footprints, OJ's hair, OJ's hat, OJ's blood, OJ's gloves, OJ's Bronco carpet fibers and OJ's ex-wife.

Was it the greatest prosecution performance ever? No, but they proved their case beyond a REASONABLE doubt and that's all the law requires.

With respect to Mark Fuhrman, himself, he was the seventeenth person to arrive on scene...that's well after the crime scene had been established and evidence was being collected. Actually, he found very little of the evidence...most notably the blood on OJ's Bronco door and the second glove. Even if EVERYTHING he personally found was tossed out, there was still more than enough evidence at the crime scene (collected by others) which pointed to one man and one man only...OJ Simpson.

Mark Fuhrman didn't provide the jury with reasonable doubt...he gave them an excuse. The evidence was irrelevant.

[Aba21]

Beej...............
Well now that's what I call saying what's on your mind. We should be able to have a conversation about any subject without rancor. It is our we break down barriers and mistrust. You said so much in your post and I am not as good at spearating it but I will say that I'm glad to see we are now on the same page disaggreeing. I mean no one around here harm when I speak, just a chance to see the other side.

You make a great point about young people nowadays having more of an idea about how the other side lives. They seem to want the same things, go to the same places and if you watch the young culture today, they are almost just one group.

Much of what I say may not be relevant in today's society but it certainly had a great bearing on my logical thought process. I grew up in an all black neighborhood, with a healthy mistrust for whites in Washington, DC. But I was one of only 4 African-Americans in Twin Falls, Idaho and the first African American athlete at the University of Georgia. I was also the first African Americn recruited by Brigham Young University.

What I get from this is that even in the 60's there were many whites who wanted to improve race relations in this country. Of course I didn't know it at the time but I now realize they thought I was the person who could make some of that happen at these particular schools. Somebody had to be first. Do you think you could have gone to Grambling then? I am honored by that because I was always told as a kid to be a leader and not a follower and I guess in that sense I was.

I have no problem saying that one of the most important influences in my life was a rugged, hard working, middle class, highly religious, very discplined, white college basketball coach. Without his guidence I may have never made it out of college. He showed no favortism and treated me like one of his own. Would bust my door down to make sure I went to class, but also recognized I was in a place where I had no friends and no place to go. He was there for me all the way.

Because of him, my first foray into living with whites on a daily basis turned out all right. Even when I was called the N word at Georgia, ran accross the KKK, was told to go to the back of the store to get served, I knew there was more to life than those bigoted few. I was determined and focused on showing the University that we could compete not only on the field but in the classroom as well. I see how my being able to handle all that adversity helped shape me as a person and a man. It opened doors for all the great African-American athletes who have come since. I may be as proud of that as anything I have ever done in life.

But it doesn't change what I still see and feel everyday I get up. Just look at what happened to Ophrah Winfrey the other day. I went into a Target in Paramus, New Jersey once and bought $17 worth of merchandise. The woman at the register was white and the woman in line on front of me was white. She purchased over $200 worth of items. She paid with a credit card and was not asked for ID. When it became my turn, I also used a credit card but was asked for ID. When I asked why I needed one, the cashier said it was store policy. I said if that's the case then why didn't you ask the woman in front of me for one? She said she knew the woman. I said it doesn't matter, store policy says you get ID from everyone. I said I would not give her one and she could keep the merchandise. Little battles like this happen everyday. I stopped at a high end jewlery store one afternoon to get my championship ring polished and sized in San Antonio. They wouldn't let me in. I knew it was because of the way I was dressed and my size and color. Come on Beej.......that's just ridiculous! They said they don't do any work like that and so there was no reason for me to come in. Has that ever happened to you? I could go on but you get my drift. It is a subtle thing that weighs on your mind all the time and affects where you go, what you do and what you believe. It can make you so cynical that you believe nothing a white person says or does. Again people who have not had my good fortune have it even worse.

And while I can't speak for others, as far as I'm concerned, you can speak your mind on any subject you choose around me. I am still learning something everyday..even at my advanced age!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D

[Aba21]

I always tell young kids, just because someone gave you a million dollars don't make you any smarter. It just gives you more room to make mistakes. I feel this is one of the problems in sports today...........too much money and no education to deal with it..........so its either stolen from them................or spent foolishly.....but that a horse of another color for dicussion on another thread at another time!!!!

[Aba21]

kalisa2 said:

Beej... "he gave them an excuse. "

We agree 100% on that. Not everyone does. But the Dream Team didn't stop at discrediting Mark Fuhrman.

But, I will say, though I have NO doubt in my own mind, the defense's attacks on every piece of evidence, their own mountain of anti-evidence if you will, could make one think... "Why isn't there one piece of clear evidence that can't be assailed? Why is EVERYthing tainted in some way?". That's reasonable doubt, with smoke and mirrors .

I very much appreciate the perspective Aba is sharing with us, as it has always been imcomprehensible to me how anyone could be happy about the verdict in this case. I understand better now.

Suggested viewing and study: "The murder of Emmett Till" and "Chasing the Dream (The Hank Aaron story)"...

And reading this response only futher indicates all I have said. We are in our own little coccoons and don't always have a second side to see, and that includes me even with all the so called association with white friends everyday. Deep down inside we all have our discriminations whether it be on race or wealth or power or anything else. It all affects out thinking. Just as you couldn't see how they could be happy with the verdict, many couldn't see how you couldn't be. He was one of our heroes and we wanted him to be not guilty.....at least I did.

[Aba21]

kalisa2 said:

aba21 said:

Just as you couldn't see how they could be happy with the verdict, many couldn't see how you couldn't be. He was one of our heroes and we wanted him to be not guilty.....at least I did.

Well, there's a difference, and it is a huge and important difference, even if you call it arguing semantics. He WAS found "not guilty", the jury found him thus, so you got what you wanted. I wanted him to be innocent, to have not committed this crime. But if he did, then IMO he should have been punished just as IMO you or I or any person who killed somebody else should be. (cross ref: The murderers of Emmett Till are also 'not guilty' ... and they confessed in a national magazine after the verdict ... so also clearly not innocent.) He certainly was one of OUR heros, globally not racially... and I really wanted him to be innocent of the crime. Just as I want MJ to actually be innocent of the crimes he was accused of... rather than just 'not guilty' vote by a jury. (however, the distincton here is... in OJ's case two people are still dead whether he is innocent or not... with MJ, there is a possibility that no child was molested/harmed)

I don't believe OJ is/was (innocent), and I don't really believe that you believe he is/was. But Not Guilty... for sure.

again...I don't think I made the distinction between not guilty and innocent but we as a people are usually guilty until proven innocent.....that's just the way it is so I don't even think the way you do on that one. SOmetimes even when we're innocent we are still guilty in some folks eyes. You know what I'm talking aobut when I say that cause you know aobut Texas. I just didn't want to have to face the fact that he could have committed such a crime.

[MissTara]

Why does Texas always come up? I never hear a person of no color bring up Texas Aba. Why must we bring up things that happened many moons ago? Me saything that doesn't have anything to do wih Texas, but still as long as 18-1900 "black slaves" come up in a conversation, there will always be an arguement between whites and blacks only...Again, I think I've said this before in another thread, but there are times where I'd kill to be Chinese, just to escape from racial commentary

[davidruffinlover]

Ok, back to MJ. Anyone watch the BET awards last night? Nice jacket Missy Elliot had on during her performance(dancers as well). Some very nice things said about MJ at the post show by Gladys Knight & Omarion. =)

[jusme]

beej said:

Isn't it a little embarassing to admit, though? I mean, it's just silly that this is even an issue. Maybe it says something about human nature...I don't know. Wounds heal over time, but the scars never seem to go away.

I think as long as there are human beings on this planet that are not absolutely identical to eachother, this will forever remain an issue, no matter how many so-called improvements are made, racial problems will always exists, though sometimes, society wants us to believe that they are exinct. In most cases, black people think more about race and are more aware of racial problems because we are forced into being reminded of them. Maybe one would think as a 17 year-old girl, that I wouldn't have encountered such problems living in this day and time, but I have, especially having graduated from a predominately white school. (perhaps wearing Huey Newton t-shirts didn't help ;D). So when cases like these come up, we want to see to it that our people have fair trials, especially black men, because for so long, they were just hanged from trees and that was it. And also, we do want to believe the best about them. Now, maybe OJ is guilty as sin, but he had his trial and he was found not gulity,and yet...people are still trying to hang him. But, look who was involved: a black man accused of killing two white people, one being a white woman. For years, black men were lynched just for looking at or speaking to white women because they were and still are thought to be the eptiome of purity and beauty. And the same thing goes for Mike...he had his trail, and he was found not guilty. We may not all be satisfied with either of the verdicts, but they are what they are. The system is what it is.

[tabby]

((Beej)) Don't have us whites take the blame for all the racist behavior in this society. Black people are not bad at it either; they know too how to victimize others. They'd rather not try too hard to p*&& me of, because I tell them right away what they are ... Being black (and proud ) is no excuse for being racist ...